The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol.

The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol.

Postby sunnyAK on 2. July 2017, 09:48

I will add pics and information to this topic within the next 24 hours. Is this breed/ type of dog still available? What do you guys think?

This is what an owner of a Perro de Toro said about this type of Alano.
Hello I am an owner of this stronger and heavy type of spanish alano so called perro de toro. One of my females - alfalfa del pumarejo is true representative of this line. She is smaller, big bone, muscular,with relative big head and very strong jaws, incredibly fast on short distance than alanos from hunting lines. She has primal presas insticnt to hold any pray. Her father is one of famous present perro de toro - atila de los tarantos like her grandfather Thyson de los Cuadrojones


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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby Gun on 2. July 2017, 13:43

Well I'm keen to see your pics and info, I can't say I know exactly what it is but I'm sure at some point its history would intertwine with the alano. To me the alano is a Spanish bulldog, all I can think is they maybe made a bull baiting specialist using the alano at some point which was more compact, and it has since gone extinct?
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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby sunnyAK on 3. July 2017, 04:21

Gun wrote:Well I'm keen to see your pics and info


I have updated the text. ;)
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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby Gun on 3. July 2017, 05:30

I'm a little confused, is it bigger or smaller? It seems to be described as heavier and smaller and faster than an alano. Not sure how that makes sense?

It sounds like someone is trying to make a breed out of one dog again, that old chestnut that molosserdogs made into an artform. I think they just have an atypical alano, personally. Or a cross. Either or.

I think the Spanish had a handful of dog types and thats it. The alano is their bulldog, and their mastiff. The Spanish mastiff is their lgd, and the trans montano is what real working Spanish mastiffs that haven't yet become a recognised breed look like. The presa is just an alano that ended up somewhere else. The fila is a hybrid of alano with various hounds for more allrounder work on new frontiers in the Americas, etc etc. Most of all of the above have naturally changed to be "pure breeds" but behind all the mess there's only gonna be a few different types.
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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby sunnyAK on 3. July 2017, 10:12

Gun wrote:I'm a little confused, is it bigger or smaller? It seems to be described as heavier and smaller and faster than an alano. Not sure how that makes sense?

It sounds like someone is trying to make a breed out of one dog again, that old chestnut that molosserdogs made into an artform.


I agree, that sounds a bit weird. As big as, but heavier could makes sense, but why should it have been smaller?

I guess it was a heavier type used to hold an unruly bull. With that said, very powerful and similar to the old type of DdB that was mostly found in Toulouse. I think it is possible that you have different types of Alanos in one litter of Alano Espanols, including this heavier more powerful type, less equipped to work based on endurance like lighter Alanos, but very powerful and also determined.
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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby da pink on 3. July 2017, 14:10

Gun wrote:
I think the Spanish had a handful of dog types and thats it. The alano is their bulldog, and their mastiff. The Spanish mastiff is their lgd, and the trans montano is what real working Spanish mastiffs that haven't yet become a recognised breed look like. The presa is just an alano that ended up somewhere else. The fila is a hybrid of alano with various hounds for more allrounder work on new frontiers in the Americas, etc etc. Most of all of the above have naturally changed to be "pure breeds" but behind all the mess there's only gonna be a few different types.



There you have it
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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby sunnyAK on 7. July 2017, 01:31

Gun wrote:I think the Spanish had a handful of dog types and thats it. The alano is their bulldog, and their mastiff. The Spanish mastiff is their lgd, and the trans montano is what real working Spanish mastiffs that haven't yet become a recognised breed look like. The presa is just an alano that ended up somewhere else. The fila is a hybrid of alano with various hounds for more allrounder work on new frontiers in the Americas, etc etc. Most of all of the above have naturally changed to be "pure breeds" but behind all the mess there's only gonna be a few different types.


Yes, that hits the nail pretty much.

However back to the type they are calling the "Toro de Perro Espanol". Here is a pic of one of these examples more than 100 years ago. Honestly I think the dog in this pic is Caporal a famous French fighter of toulouse-type (Dogue de Toulouse.) However it is said that the Spanish Bulldog and the Dogue de Toulouse were more or less the same dog!
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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby Gun on 7. July 2017, 03:08

sunnyAK wrote:However it is said that the Spanish Bulldog and the Dogue de Toulouse were more or less the same dog!

This is what I think and then you could add many more.

There is a great amount of variation in the domestic dog but no where near as much as the hundreds and hundreds of breeds (alive or dead) would lead you to believe.
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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby sunnyAK on 7. July 2017, 03:44

Gun wrote:
sunnyAK wrote:However it is said that the Spanish Bulldog and the Dogue de Toulouse were more or less the same dog!

This is what I think and then you could add many more.


I agree! Iwould say the whole family of dogs who belong to the "Bullenbeisser-type" could be added. Maybe Spain and France had the best Bulldogs for combat, but beside that this type you could not only find in Spain and in France.
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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby da pink on 7. July 2017, 11:02

Gun wrote:
sunnyAK wrote:However it is said that the Spanish Bulldog and the Dogue de Toulouse were more or less the same dog!

This is what I think and then you could add many more.

There is a great amount of variation in the domestic dog but no where near as much as the hundreds and hundreds of breeds (alive or dead) would lead you to believe.

Definately, that photo could be almost any bull breed.

It always kind of surprises me that the regional variations names have held so long. . . . Toulouse is what, 100 mile tops from Bordeaux, and the same from Northern Spain. I get that the distance, back then, was to all intents and purposes longer than it is now....and that different lines would occur in different areas; But that's all they could be, no more different than different lines of APBT, yet named after the district they were used in. Folk love hanging onto their history I guess.
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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby sunnyAK on 29. July 2017, 23:50

da pink wrote:Definately, that photo could be almost any bull breed.

It always kind of surprises me that the regional variations names have held so long. . . . Toulouse is what, 100 mile tops from Bordeaux, and the same from Northern Spain. I get that the distance, back then, was to all intents and purposes longer than it is now....and that different lines would occur in different areas; But that's all they could be, no more different than different lines of APBT, yet named after the district they were used in. Folk love hanging onto their history I guess.


I think you have hit the nail!
I am pretty sure there existed some very tough Bulldogs in Spain and France and my guess is, that the dogs found in France, have been closer in phenotype as well as genotype to the Spanish dogs, than to the British dogs. (At least around 1900)
However, I also guess that the "fighting stories" concerning dogs like Caporal and other Bulldogs have been hyped too, just like nowadays stories about "fighting champions" (Volkodavs and BKs) are hyped and never represent the whole breed or type.

P.S.: Beside that I have noticed another thing. It is wrong to say that the "short Bulldog muzzle" goes back to modern show-breeders. Obviously these Bulldogs used in the "pit" as fighting strain of the Butchers´ Mastiff had pretty short muzzles.
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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby sunnyAK on 12. August 2017, 21:09

I guess this is pretty precise how the heavier type of Spanish Bulldog (Perror de Toro) looked like, but not only in Spain you could see such dogs, you could also see them in France and Germany, maybe also in Italy.

The British Bulldogs seemed to be smaller and differed in type a bit more from the once in continental Europe.
The heavier type of Bulldog (Schwerer Bullenbeisser in Germany) seemed to be inbetween Mastiff and Bulldog, just like the Perro de Toro or Dogue de Bordeaux.

In my opinion the "Alani" influence on these dogs wasn´t as big as people think, the "Beisser type" was way more influenced by Cetlic dogs that were gripping dogs of large game. Just my two cents.

Any opinions?
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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby Gun on 12. August 2017, 23:17

My opinion is the heavier type of bulldog that's "between mastiff and bulldog" was everywhere in western europe including Britain and its actually the ancestor of both the small British bulldog and the mastiffs. The British later developed their small bull baiting specialist bulldog which we now see depicted a lot in British artworks and it became their national mascot, and later, sadly the modern British bulldog.
But before that I'm sure they had their own equivalent of the bullenbeisser/alano/butchers dog and I think there's a fair bit of evidence to support that. Even in baiting accounts when the small bulldogs are starting to show up there still lingered the old type of bigger butchers dogs alongside them, there was no clean transition or clear cut end point for the larger type or beginning for the small type. They had butchers dogs for general catching farm work, bull baiting arose from that and the butchers dogs did that too, then people started developing some more bait specialised dogs, and both did the baiting for a while, no doubt hybrids of both too, and all of the above maybe even did the farm work too, then the farm work kind of largely died out in Britain and baiting diversified and got more big time and gradually the more compact baiting style bulldog prevailed.

However simultaneously mastiffs and bullmastiffs were splitting off from the old type of butchers dog too. Till in the end the butchers dog in Britain had essentially split into the mastiff, bullmastiff, bulldog and bull terrier. These could all be considered offspring of the butchers dog lineage, with some other ancestral input like terrier and boarhound, and this is mirrored by DNA analysis.

I recently saw on a British dog program with this shockingly ugly but quite intelligent redhead lady a bulldog skull found in Britain from bull baiting days that was quite long and pitbull like.

OK just dug around a bit, the show was "wonder of dogs" and she is "Ruth Goodman". The show was mostly crap but her small parts were quite good, coming from a more serious history angle. I feel like she'd have a good docu series in her about dogs if she wanted to do it. Maybe she could wear a bag on her head. Lol. That's mean, but she really looks like a cartoon witch. However again, really knows her shit, a good historian in general.
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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby da pink on 14. August 2017, 11:08

That is not an attractive lady


Good post though, I'll watch the fuckpigs video when I get a mo.

And it's a shame our national mascott is ruined.

Question for Gun though.....you know how the EBT as a breed isn't particularly useful & yet is nearly always used in pig dogs as it's qualities are many when crossed with others? Does the British Bulldog, in your experience, bring anything to the mix?
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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby Gun on 14. August 2017, 12:49

Yeah I'm pretty sure its a similar deal, like you get the best out of them and lose the issues.
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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby da pink on 14. August 2017, 17:06

Maybe cross an EBT with a BB and see what happens
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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby sunnyAK on 16. August 2017, 17:05

Gun wrote:My opinion is the heavier type of bulldog that's "between mastiff and bulldog" was everywhere in western europe including Britain and its actually the ancestor of both the small British bulldog and the mastiffs.


That could be possible! I guess we will never know it exactly. What do you think, if the heavier type Bulldog was the ancestor of both, the Mastiff and the Bulldog, to what type of dog was the heavier Bulldog crossed to, to produce "the Mastiff"?

Here another vintage pic of a fighting dog. This time no Bulldog type fighting dog, but a Mastiff type fighting dog.
(In phenotype it looks a bit similar to short coated Saint Bernard, I would say.)

P.S. I guess this dog is one of the reasosn why Volkodavs are as big as they are. This (their big size) has been a question in another thread. This type of dog for sure is to some degree part of the genetic makeup of Volkodavs.

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Re: The original Spanish Bulldog...the Toro de Perro Espanol

Postby Gun on 17. August 2017, 03:43

Its not entirely necessary that they were crossed with anything to make mastiffs, but I'm sure they probably were crossed with various things as well as just the product of general selection for size. St bernards, Newfoundland's, boarhounds, lgds... all could have been utilised. From what I understand "the English mastiff" is known to be a "recreation" using bullmastiff, great Dane and st bernard, made at a time when the bm had already been inflated to a larger size than the mastiff ever was. All these big mastiffs popped up in the 1900s, mostly after the war, a lot of the more exotic ones only emerged as "large mastiff types" in the late 90s/early 2000s. Boerboels, presas, even filas... It seems they were still alano sized bulldogs in the 70s and 80s. I think the alano sized working bulldog is the real ancestor of western mastiffs and bullbreeds, its almost like mastiffs just aren't even a real thing. Alano sized bulldogs got crossed with big hunting sighthounds to make boarhounds and bloodhounds, and crossed with terriers to make bull terriers. I think that's probably pretty much the extent of working types from this western "bull and mastiff" family. The large sluggish mastiff popped up in the 1900s just as a big pet. The older artworks of large dogs that are mastiff like all look like boarhounds to me.
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