Cuban Bloodhound

Cuban Bloodhound

Postby freed on 13. November 2014, 04:00

Image

By tradition, light-colored mastiffs were used to guard flocks, in the belief that they would not scare the sheep, and dark-colored ones to homes and to fight, because they terrorized people." Mark Derr

The Cuban Bloodhound inherited all the main characteristics of the the Spanish pursuit dogs. In the beginning the Cuban Bloodhound was used for combat against the Indians. 'This singular race was characterized as one of rare aggressiveness. It was a dog of great desire in its job, of much tenacity and of fearless courage. Men feared facing it as it was common that the dogs succeeded to kill without difficulty. It's bite was particularly strong. It was distinguished from the other dogs also for its resistance and its churlishness. (Rudeness of manners or temper; lack of kindness or courtesy). They were '24 inches high and 36 inches long (or thereabouts), with a head, breast, fore-legs and shoulders like a light-made mastiff, and stout somewhat enlongated, ears erect like a grey-hound (mostly cropped where they bend), and loins, croup, haunches, and tails like a greyhound, only thicker set. This combination, you may conceive, produces an animal of great nerve, strength, and agility, and such to all appearances, are these bloodhounds.' St. Augustine Herald 2-6-1840

Slavery became abolished in 1878 in Cuba, and in 1864 in the US, and with the renunciation of Spain to all its rights on the Cuban island in 1895, there was no need to use these dogs for their original function in Cuba or in the US. Subsequently, the Cuban Bloodhound disappeared quickly. However, it was only the name and cruel use of the 'Cuban Bloodhound' that disappeared. Decendants remain on remote farms in the backwoods of the rural south known as Brindle Bulldogs and Big Red Bulldogs. Although the Cuban Bloodhound as a race of dog no longer exists, their influence in the curs, hounds and mastiff/bullbreeds of the southeast remains.
Picture
"Fila bite the people"
The Cuban Bloodhound was also commonly known as the Fila throughout the American South.

Pictured at right is a photo of a drawing and writings found on the wall of a secreted room along the Underground Railroad. The dog pictured is that of a crop eared, large headed, mastiff type dog. Certainly not what many would call a hound. The writing reads, "Fila bite the people".

Literacy was very uncommon among the slave population, though not unheard of. This person apparently wished to leave a reminder, in depictions and the written word, of the cruel use of slave dogs.

"There have been instances in which five or six of the big so-called bloodhounds of the southern states - not pure bloodhounds at all, but huge, fierce, ban-dogs with a cross of the ferocious Cuban Bloodhound, to give them good scenting powers-have by themselves mastered the cougar and the Black Bear. Such instances occurred in the hunting history of my own fore-fathers on my mother's side, who during the last half of the eighteenth century, and the first half of the present century, lived in Georgia, and over the border in what are now Alabama and Florida. These big dogs can only overcome such foes by rushing in in a body and grappling all together; if they hang back, lunging and snapping, a cougar or bear will destroy them one by one." Hunting the Grisly and Other Sketches: by Theodore Roosevelt

"Most of the trip neither you nor Mother nor Sister would enjoy; but you would all of you be immensely amused with the dogs. There are eleven all told, but really only eight do very much hunting. These eight are all scarred with the wounds they have received this very week in battling with the cougars and lynxes, and they are always threatening to fight one another; but they are as affectionate toward men (and especially toward me, as I pet them) as our own home dogs. At this moment a large hound and a small half-breed bull-dog, both of whom were quite badly wounded this morning by a cougar, are shoving their noses into my lap to be petted, and humming defiance to one another. They are on excellent terms with the ranch cat and kittens. The three chief fighting dogs, who do not follow the trail, are the most affectionate of all,and, moreover, they climb trees! Yesterday we got a big lynx in the top of a pinion tree—a low, spreading kind of pine—about thirty feet tall. Turk, the bloodhound, followed him up, and after much sprawling actually got to the very top, within a couple of feet of him. Then, when the lynx was shot out of the tree, Turk, after a short scramble, took a header down through the branches, landing with a bounce on his back. Tony, one of the half-breed bull-dogs, takes such headers on an average at least once for every animal we put up a tree." "Letter's to his Children" by Theodore Roosevelt

The Cuban Bloodhound is a direct ancestor of the Brindle Bulldog and Big Red Bulldog, (a large, highly aggressive guard dog being red in color, and quite rare), of Louisiana and Mississippi. (It is said that this Big Red Bulldog is a cross of the Cuban Bulldog and Dogue de Bordeaux, and was developed in Louisiana in the 18th and 19th centuries as a ferocious and malevolent guard dog). The Cuban Bloodhound was a key ingredient in the makeup of many guard and hunting type dogs of the south in early American history, thus the highly aggressive behavior, as long bred into the Cuban Bloodhound; the notorious "mean streak;" that has followed bulldogs in American history.

http://oweps.weebly.com/the-cuban-bloodhound.html

And a second text:

Image

he image above is of “Spot,” one of the two Cuban bloodhounds that was used to guard the POW camp at Andersonville, Georgia, during the Civil War.

Andersonville was a notorious POW camp, where nearly 13,000 Union POW’s died of malnutrition and disease– something like the Confederacy’s gulag. The commandant at that particular POW camp was a German-Swiss failed revolutionary, Heinrich Hartmann (“Henry”) Wirz.

To deal with escapes, Wirz kept a pack of man-hunting dogs. These were largely slave-hunting dogs, which were sometimes called “nigger dogs,” that were often used to track slaves that ran away. Most of these were just mongrel foxhounds, bloodhounds, coonhounds, and curs, but in many parts of the South, another kind of dog was often used.

This dog was the Cuban bloodhound.

Now, let me disabuse you of a common misconception: Cuban bloodhound had very little to do with the heavy scent hounds that were derived from the Medieval lymers, dogs that tracked cold trails on leashes or “lyams.” The lymer bloodhounds were never particularly aggressive dogs.

The Cuban bloodhound was quite different. It was derived from a large bulldog-type that was native to Iberian Peninsula. The Spanish used it throughout the New World, along with other large aggressive dogs, to subjugate Native Americans and to control slaves and those laborers bound to the haciendas.

Cuba was very much a slave society, only abolishing it in 1886, and all slave societies have certain features. Among these is the need for a very strong state (as in Weber’s definition of state). No person wants to be a slave, and if you ever have a situation where there are large numbers of people who are being held in slavery, the region is always in a state of war. Slaves often run off, and they often conspire to form rebellions against those who are holding them in bondage. To keep slave revolts under control, it was always necessary to have well-organized units that were expert at fighting. This is one reason why the Confederacy had much better soldiers during the Civil War. Many of the soldiers who fought had already seen battle against minor slave rebellions.

The Cubans used this type of catching mastiff as part of their arsenal against their slaves, and the Cuban bloodhound would have remained solely in Cuba had the Maroons not revolted in Jamaica. Jamaica was given to England in 1655, and the Spanish slaveholders who lived there freed their slaves as the English took over. Slavery had been very hard to establish in Jamaica, and many Spanish slaveholders had a hard time keeping their slaves under control. Those they brought over from Africa would often run off and join the remaining Taino in the mountains. The Taino were also held as slaves on the island, but as was the case throughout the Caribbean, the native people were not resistant to European diseases and many died while they were being held as slaves. Those Taino who remained hid out in the mountains, often raiding plantations. Many African slaves joined up with the Taino, and they gave the Spanish lots of trouble in Jamaica. When the English took over, the slaves the Spanish colonists freed and those Taino and Africans hiding out in the mountains caused them even more trouble.

There were two wars against the Maroons, and the English were never able to control much of the island’s interior.

Until the colonial government ordered “bloodhounds” from Cuba. In 1736, it was decided that each army post should have a bloodhound to dog Maroons, and by 1737, the First Maroon War, which lasted 52 years, was ended. The dogs were a very effective tool of oppression and war, and when the Maroons rose again in 1795, more bloodhounds were brought over to crush that revolt, which lasted only a month. Much credit has been given to those dogs, but in reality, things were much more complex. The English and British had to make massive concessions to the Maroons just to keep the peace, but the bloodhounds were about the only tool that the Europeans had that gave them any advantage.

But at the time, the Cuban bloodhounds became famous in the English-speaking world for their use against rebellious slaves and Indians.

In 1835, the United States became embroiled in the Second Seminole War. Seminole situation was similar to the British experience in Jamaica. Slaves were escaping from plantations and joining up with hostile Indians, and having heard of the supposed successes that came from these bloodhounds in Jamaica, the Florida Territorial government purchase Cuban bloodhounds to use against the Seminoles. The dogs were credited with catching only two Seminoles, and the Florida territorial government actually charged the US Army $2,500 for their import and upkeep. John Quincy Adams, the former president and outspoken opponent of slavery in the House of Representatives, threw a fit on the house of representatives for this bill. He suggested the dogs be sent to Maine ASAP so they could be used in a possible war with Britain over the border with New Brunswick, and the US government needed to be careful. It might have to pay these bloodhounds a pension!

The dogs then became relatively common throughout the South, even if they were of no use against Native Americans, they were very good at catching slaves. This was the bloodhound that was portrayed as a villain in the abolitionist literature, an unfortunate historical misnomer that would later tarnish the name old lymers that we also call “bloodhound.”

During the Civil War, at least two of the dogs were used to guard Union POW’s. There were probably more of these dogs used for this purpose, but the two at the Andersonville Prison were the best known. When Andersonville was liberated, a photo was taken of Spot. I cannot find a good copy of it online, but it is from that photo that the above image was produced.

Spot was a big dog. He stood three feet at the shoulder and weighed 159 pounds. With that size and disposition, he was quite a dangerous animal.

Having looked at several depictions and descriptions of the Cuban bloodhound, the closest I can get to a modern-day equivalent and possible relative is the Presa Canario. The Presa Canario may be derived from Spanish catch dogs that were brought to the islands. This catch dog could have the common ancestor with the Cuban bloodhound, or it may be that the Cuban bloodhound was derived from the catch dogs from the Canary Islands.

The exact history of the Presa Canario isn’t all that clear, and there is a persistent theory that the Presa Canario is derived from an indigenous mastiff-type dog that was there before the Spanish Conquest. Supposedly, the Canary Islands, which are derived from the Latin word for dog (Canis), are named for this dog.

I am not sure if the Presa Canario is an ancient mastiff from the Canary Islands or is the result of imports from Spain. I don’t think the official history of these dogs has experienced much rigor, so one should rightly be skeptical.

However, I do think it is likely that the Cuban bloodhound was a very close relative of the Presa Canario. It may have even been the same dog. It’s just the Cuban dog was used in the New World and got some ancestry from other New World dogs.

That’s probably why Spot was some form of merle. Merle doesn’t exist widely in the mastiff family, and I doubt that it was widespread in Iberian mastiffs. As you may know, I am skeptical of the theory that the Catahoulas and other merle curs are derived from Spanish mastiffs. I think their merling comes English cur dogs and perhaps– though never proven– the proto-Beauceron that may have been in Louisiana. Crossing bulldogs and mastiff-tupe dogs with curs is old hat in the South, so it would have made sense that Cuban bloodhounds would have been bred to curs to make merle attack dogs.

After slavery was abolished following the Civil War, the need to have these big attack dogs disappeared. There are some theories that these dogs disappeared into the bulldog and “pit bull” types that were much more common, but even if they did, their contribution to these breeds is probably quite trivial. The Southern bulldogs that are now established breeds aren’t like Cuban bloodhounds at all, and the Cuban dogs were much larger and much harder to control than one would have ever wanted in a pit fighting dog.

The Cuban bloodhound was the real dog of war, and after the wars, it became a tool of oppression in slave societies.

This is one breed whose extinction was probably a good thing.

http://retrieverman.net/2011/08/02/one- ... le-prison/

P.S. I wonder if this dog called "Spott" was just a dog from Germany. It obviously has the merle gene.
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby Varna on 13. November 2014, 05:37

Thank you a lot for posting this profile. About the merle dog, I also think it was just imported from Germany. Merle spotted dogs as well as blue dogs are typical German.
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby Gun on 13. November 2014, 13:55

I think it's more accurate to say the ancestors of the german mastiff aka great dane, were widespread across europe as "european boarhounds", including in spain, the cuban bloodhound largely descending from boarhounds brought over from spain. Later boarhounds receded across europe until only the great dane was left as a sort of "representative" in the show dog world. Not unlike what happened in the new world until only the fila was left in brazil. But fila type dogs were spread across the americas, and dane like dogs were spread across europe. Although it is possible the germans were the first to concoct the mongrel boarhound type, while england was focussing on more specialised roles.

In fact it is said columbus himself took boarhounds over on his second trip to the new world with the distinct intention to "hunt" and "tame" natives with them, after determining this would be a viable practice on his first visit. He literally released one on natives the moment he stepped off the boat. I believe there is an artwork depicting that very incident but I can't seem to find it. In general columbus was far more terrible than they will teach you in school. He was personally actively involved in killing and torturing natives and could even be personally attributed with creating the new world "bloodhound" role.

It is my suspicion both the great dane and cuban bloodhound acquired the merle and harlequin coats from scenthound blood.
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby sunnyAK on 13. November 2014, 15:09

Gun wrote:It is my suspicion both the great dane and cuban bloodhound acquired the merle and harlequin coats from scenthound blood.


Hard to say where the harlequin comes from. It is typical for some Shepherds too.
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby sunnyAK on 13. November 2014, 16:53

Gun wrote:I think it's more accurate to say the ancestors of the german mastiff aka great dane, were widespread across europe as "european boarhounds", including in spain, the cuban bloodhound largely descending from boarhounds brought over from spain.


I think the Spanish ones haven´t been larger than a current Alano Espanol. The pics they show here as "Cuban Bloodhounds" are much larger. Indeed more like a German Mastiff.
I have copied a nice article from a book:
Image
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby raylane on 13. November 2014, 19:55

Meral color is common of the Colie type also found in Spain. In the Catahola, is is belived to come from France. Gun, the original Cuban Bloodhounds were mainly smaller dogs about the size and type of lg APBT. First off, ships were small and could carry very little livestock. Second, these dogs were used on long Conquests in the jungles of South America to the Swamps of North America. As the name Cuban Bloodhound grew in popularity, many recreated Bandog types to include crosses with COs and sold for top dollar under the name Cuban Bloodhound. In Cuba, their decendants still exist and are often called simply Pit Bulls...
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby raylane on 13. November 2014, 19:58

The Cuban Bloodhound was an English term for Presas/Filas bred in Cuba and used extensivly in South USA. Basically, because Spanish Alanos are Herding/Guarding Dogs of cattle, with modified Prey Drives to herd, crosses were made with the Irish Greyhound to produce Wolfhound/Bandogs to chase down and kill natives like wolves. This is the origins of Bulldogs of South USA used to kill packs of wild dogs, that had replaced the wolves....

"The Spanish conquistadors brought with them to America large mastiffs and greyhounds that had been trainned for war and killing people. These animals were unlike any dogs Native Americans had ever seen."
A History of Dogs in the Early Americas, Marion Schwartz

While much larger than native dogs of America, most of these Mastiff/Greyhound crosses were not very large, as they were used on long Conquests. These were the first Pit Bulls of America....

"It was in battle, however, that Spanish dogs reached their full potential. As early as 1495, at the battle of Vega Real, Hispanola, Christopher Columbus' pack of twenty was reported to have killed large numbers of people in very short order. Within a few years, public markets sold human body parts for training Spanish dogs to develop a taste for people, and these dogs were pitted against Native Americans for sport."
A History of Dogs in the Early Americas, Marion Schwartz

Reports from Cuba describe "Presas" as small brindle and buckskin dogs that are resembled by modern APBT. However, unlike the people friendly APBT, these "Presas" of Cuba are very unfriendly to strangers. One must realize, the APBT was highly refined and bred never to bite man. In South USA, the two closiest decendants are most likely the Brindle Bulldog and Black Mouth Cur. The story of Ol-Yeller is well known, as he fought wild boar, wolf, and bear, however, little is known about the Brindle Bulldog...

"Her father's gun hung over the door and good old Jack, the Brindle Bulldog, lay on guard before it. Her father would say: 'Go to sleep Loura, Jack won't let the wolves in."
Little House in the Big Woods, Loura Ingals, published in 1932, first written in 1872

It was well documented the original American Bulldogs were used to kill packs of wild dogs, however, like the modern Presas, most folks think of them as a type of Catch/Holding Dog. This, however, is refuted by clear accounts of their use to kill...

"The Black Mouth Cur has a burning desire to please his master. A courageous, swift hunter of squirrel, coon, boar or bear, he never retreates. He runs to catch the game and catches to kill."
The Atlas of Dog Breeds of the World

Presas/Filas and Cuban Bloodhounds were developed to kill. Their Herding/Guarding abilities of cattle tells why they were obsourbed into Bulldogs and Curs of South USA....

"It has already been stated that in the New World the Spaniards have a number of wild and ferocious dogs which they have trained especially to kill people and to tear them to bits. It is not difficult to discover who are the real Christians and who are not when one learns that, to feed these dogs, they ensure that whenever they travel they always have a ready supply of natives, chained and herded like so many calves on the hoof. These they kill and butcher as the need arises."
A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies, Bartolome de las Casas, 1542

While the Spanish Alano is a Herding/Guarding Dog of cattle, the Irish Greyhounds provided the Prey Drives to hunt natives like wolves. The Irish Greyhounds, however, also doubled as Shepherd Dogs of cattle. The Irish Greyhounds must not be confused with the Greyhound Proper...

"These were the same fierce 'Irish greyhounds' John Winthrop had imported to the Massachusetts Bay Colony 150 years earlier to kill wolves, the same fell beasts the conquistadors had turned on Native Americans..."
A Dog's History of America, Derr

The Alano/Lebrel (Irish Greyhound) crosss was documented in 12th century Spain, by Alphonso, as used to hunt Big Game. During the Spanish Conquests of America, the Big Game was man. During Colonial Times, Southerners used them to keep slaves in line (like cattle) and to hunt down escaped slaves. The French in Loisianna brought their Mastiffs of the early Douge de Bordeaux type and intercrossed with the Cuban stock created some of the fierciest variations of Cuban Bloodhounds. Frenchmen would offer their services to Southern Plantation owners. Exibitions by the French of their Cuban Bloodhounds included having a slave enrage the dog kept chainned and released to attack. The term Bandog is the best description of the Cuban Bloodhound....

"The Bandog is a variety of this fierce tribe, (the Bulldog and Mastiff) not often to be seen at present. It is lighter, smaller, more active and vigilant than the mastiff, but not so powerful, and its nose is smaller, (narrower), and possesses in some degree, the scent of the hound. Its hair is rough and generally of a yellowish grey, streaked with shades of a black or brown color. It does not invariably, like the preceeding kinds, attack its adversary in front, but frequently seizes cattle by the flank, it attacks with eagerness, and its bite is keen."
Bewick, 1790

These Alano/Irish Greyhound crosses at the time of the Spanish Conquests most likely also gave rise to the Irish Wolfhound Proper....

"They are large, noble, handsome, remarkably quiet, patient, till really provoked, but then truly formidable, their hair standing errect, and they never quit their hold but with certain destruction. They are white, or white with a few black or brown spots."
Gough, 1789

If this description reminds you of the white American Bulldogs used to guard livestock on farms of South USA, it should....

"They are marked the color of tigers, with many colored spots."
General History of the Things of New Spain: Florentine Codes, Book XII, Frey Bernardino de Sahagun, 1547-1575

Despite popular belief, these white American Bulldogs with spots called White English, used to kill preditor, like wild dog packs, are more in line with the Alaunt Gentil than they are the English Bulldog....

"The 'friendly Alaunt' described in the same place, with great hunting ability, is more likely the ancestor of the Irish Wolfhound and Deerhound."
Fighting Dog Breeds, Dr Dieter Fleig

There is no other American Made Dogs used to kill wolves. Bulldogs, as they are called, had been guarding homes on the Frontier for centuries. It is more than coinicidental, these larger Bulldogs are still found in Old Spanish Florida (South USA).
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby raylane on 13. November 2014, 20:01

Sunny, the painting in the first post was painted in England, by a fellow who had never seen Cuban Bloodhounds. He simply painted English Mastiffs of his time.
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby Gun on 13. November 2014, 21:45

This is a photo of a cuban mastiff type dog from 1904.
Image
Much smaller than at least some of the cuban bloodhounds described, but something makes me suspect it is still connected to them.

What strikes me is it looks a bit like a dogo, and I stumbled onto an interesting tidbit. I've always had a problem with the so called cordoban fighting dog, I don't believe it was just a fighting dog, so what was it? Well, I've recently learned cordoba was the slave trading hub of argentina (yes they had slaves, what they have since done with all their black people I dread to think), so I'm strongly suspecting what the cordoban fighting dog really was, was argentina's "bloodhound". I'm sure while sitting around in cordoba waiting for slave shipments to come in the people would fight these dogs, giving rise to the name (helped along by the shame of having slave dogs outweighing the shame of having fighting dogs), but I believe they were first and foremost slave dogs. Again, such dogs were spread all across the americas.

Now it's true bloodhounds (cuban and otherwise) are often described as very very large, often around 150 lbs, which is actually extremely odd for the times. Even mastiffs and bullmastiffs are regularly described as being 60 - 100 lbs, 100 lbs considered a very big mastiff in historical texts. Meanwhile new world bloodhounds were often (although not always- making me suspect the above image is still of a "bloodhound") much larger, and in a way it makes sense. The role of tackling and subduing men does allow for a larger dog than the traditional big-game hunting of boar, bear and bull which calls for more agility (at least ideally).

This size most probably does indeed come from the height of sighthound (wolfhound or deerhound), or even german boarhound, combined with the muscle of bull/mastiff. The only functional dog I've known of such incredible size was indeed a wolfhound x bullmastiff. The bullmastiff sire of functional type weighing no more than 100 lbs, but the wolfhound cross created a very tall dog weighing over 150, closer to 175, but this was a working dog that could still run and indeed ran down kangaroos and foxes.

So it seems slave dogs often had both sighthound and scenthound in them. But yeah some it seems were more typical bullmastiff types, even nearly bullbreed "boucheries" in type. Like anything I suppose a wide variety of mongrel dogs would have worked, and thus found work.
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby freed on 14. November 2014, 00:05

Gun wrote:I've always had a problem with the so called cordoban fighting dog, I don't believe it was just a fighting dog, so what was it? Well, I've recently learned cordoba was the slave trading hub of argentina (yes they had slaves, what they have since done with all their black people I dread to think), so I'm strongly suspecting what the cordoban fighting dog really was, was argentina's "bloodhound".



I have read a longer time ago that they were basically chained guard dogs and pretty dog aggressive too. With the dog aggression it had it obviously was no real hunting dog.
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby Gun on 14. November 2014, 00:39

Well I don't necessarily think that's true, the bully kutta was a hunting dog and is now a fighting dog, and cuban bloodhounds were known to be fought quite a bit. Dogos and presas both have been fought a fair bit, and apbts have worked in countless hunting packs. It's pretty easy to turn a hunting dog into a fighting dog, dog aggression can be encouraged or discouraged. I don't really believe any dog has uncontrollable innate dog aggression.
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby da pink on 14. November 2014, 11:45

[quote="Gun"]This is a photo of a cuban mastiff type dog from 1904.
Image

I can see EBT in there, a lot, but maybe that's just me
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby Varna on 15. November 2014, 05:37

da pink wrote:
Gun wrote:This is a photo of a cuban mastiff type dog from 1904

I can see EBT in there, a lot, but maybe that's just me


I am just asking...maybe it's just a dog from Cuba, but no Mastiff from Cuba.
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby da pink on 17. November 2014, 12:18

If you asked me I'd say so
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby Gun on 22. November 2014, 00:08

I don't disagree with you guys, was just thinkinga out loud and all I was saying was it is a dog from cuba from when cuban bloodhounds were possibly still lingering around and just maybe had something to do with them. What I mean is it's ancestors may have been involved in the mongrel soup that made up the world of new world bloodhounds. But yes breed wise it basically looks like an ebt. Lol. However in my mind breeds for breeds sake weren't much of a thing back then so it's more pertinent to try and understand what working "scene" it has ties to.
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby Varna on 22. November 2014, 08:01

I also have ebt in my mind when I look at the pic. I have a question. Is it possible that all countries with very hot climate favour ebt-crosses? They exist in Pakistan, in India, in Argentina, in Mexico, in Brazil (The Dogue Brazileiro, which is a Fila Brazileiro x ebt cross) and in Australia. (Maybe in Cuba too.)
So is it just coincidence?
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby Gun on 22. November 2014, 11:59

Very interesting observation!
Maybe you're onto something. I was attributing the phenomenon to just timing, like what england was using at the time as their bullterrier, but I'm really not sure. I will say in my personal experience sbts truly are awful in the heat. Both my mum's sbt and the one I used to own were constantly panting and trying to lay flat on tiles to cool down. It also makes sense a longer muzzle is better for cooling the dog.
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby Varna on 1. September 2015, 02:10

Gun wrote:Very interesting observation!
Maybe you're onto something. I was attributing the phenomenon to just timing, like what england was using at the time as their bullterrier, but I'm really not sure. I will say in my personal experience sbts truly are awful in the heat. Both my mum's sbt and the one I used to own were constantly panting and trying to lay flat on tiles to cool down. It also makes sense a longer muzzle is better for cooling the dog.


What is your all time favourite ebt mix? I would love to see a game bred ebt mix of big size. 8-) Do you have Great Dane x ebt crosses in Australia? Are they fearless like slave dogs?
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby Gun on 1. September 2015, 06:30

I can't recall seeing a straight ebt x dane, but I'm sure they have existed. Have seen bully grey x dane a few times. Very nice big dogs.
I think this dog is either a bull arab x dane or bull grey x dane-
Image

I personally like ebt x stags
Image

ebt x wolfhounds
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and blends in between- ebt x wolfhound-influenced stags.
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And then some others I like that fit somewhere in the above-
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These pretty much represent the dog type I like most, I just see a perfect balance of verstility.
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby da pink on 3. September 2015, 10:53

ditto....love your Aussie dogs, I've always loved how dogs trace history and in the way you breed and use your working dogs, you've kind of froze time.

That last one? Fantastic. . . .
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby Gun on 3. September 2015, 13:45

da pink wrote:ditto....love your Aussie dogs, I've always loved how dogs trace history and in the way you breed and use your working dogs, you've kind of froze time.

That last one? Fantastic. . . .

Yeah the last one is good, for me the filthy truck adds to it's ruggedness, lol.

I think Australia is just coincidentally approaching the breeding of boardogs the same way they used to in Europe and other far reaches of the British empire. Something largely lost in Europe only due to the decline in big game and/or traditional big game. Meanwhile they continue breeding dogs for small-medium fast game in the proper traditional way, producing lurchers which are as legit as anything. If boars and traditional boar hunting remained you'd see the same dogs. The way I see it "Aussie pig dogs" are older than Australia, they were kicking around Europe in the middle ages and later in india, Pakistan and Sri Lanka as well. Not to mention the Americas and Africa. Historically Aussie pig dogs are nothing special, rather the norm. We're just backwards enough to still have them, which is a great source of pride for me.
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby sunnyAK on 4. September 2015, 00:15

@ Gun
Some awesome boar-dogs there. 8-)

P.S. What would you use if you wanted to recreate some real "Fila slave dogs" ....really fearless ones, not like modern Fila Brasileiros? :idea:

P.P.S. Maybe Australia alone has what it needs for that. Maybe some kind of big stable nerved. fearless boar-dog x Aussie Cattle Dog.
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby da pink on 4. September 2015, 14:42

Gun wrote:
da pink wrote:ditto....love your Aussie dogs, I've always loved how dogs trace history and in the way you breed and use your working dogs, you've kind of froze time.

That last one? Fantastic. . . .

Yeah the last one is good, for me the filthy truck adds to it's ruggedness, lol.

I think Australia is just coincidentally approaching the breeding of boardogs the same way they used to in Europe and other far reaches of the British empire. Something largely lost in Europe only due to the decline in big game and/or traditional big game. Meanwhile they continue breeding dogs for small-medium fast game in the proper traditional way, producing lurchers which are as legit as anything. If boars and traditional boar hunting remained you'd see the same dogs. The way I see it "Aussie pig dogs" are older than Australia, they were kicking around Europe in the middle ages and later in india, Pakistan and Sri Lanka as well. Not to mention the Americas and Africa. Historically Aussie pig dogs are nothing special, rather the norm. We're just backwards enough to still have them, which is a great source of pride for me.



good post
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby Gun on 5. September 2015, 12:12

sunnyAK wrote:@ Gun
Some awesome boar-dogs there. 8-)

P.S. What would you use if you wanted to recreate some real "Fila slave dogs" ....really fearless ones, not like modern Fila Brasileiros? :idea:

P.P.S. Maybe Australia alone has what it needs for that. Maybe some kind of big stable nerved. fearless boar-dog x Aussie Cattle Dog.

For sure all the ingredients necessary are here (and everywhere else).

A dash of cattle dog might be just the ticket introduced into some large stoic beastly line. Most boardogs are very stable nerved, not scared of people just not really interested in them. All the ones I've seen that made the transition (usually through poor upbringing) to noticing and disliking humans were completely fearless and indeed very dangerous dogs, much more so than some fear biter. A pig dog that has decided humans are fair game is I think the most dangerous dog you could get. Because they're all predatory, it's not about guarding for them or thwarting an attack, if they decide you're fair game worthy of no special treatment, they aim to kill you. This is why it's so strongly not tolerated by the pig dog community, but have seen a few that got their wires crossed and became potential man eaters.
The cattle dog blood isn't even really necessary for the simple task of wanting to attack people, you can really raise any dog to have this mentality, but the cattle dog blood would add a lot of cunning and suspicion and nullify any chance of the dog being too trusting and naive. A lot of boardogs, just like pitbulls I spose, aren't scared of humans just way too trusting and naive, even too respectful. But they're rarely scared of anything. When they are man aggressive it's usually a prey drive that's misguided, rather than a result of fear biting.
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby sunnyAK on 7. September 2015, 00:25

@ Gun
Good post, very interesting stuff
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Re: Cuban Bloodhound

Postby sunnyAK on 27. September 2015, 08:06

Maybe a cross between a large boarhound and a Malinois really would be the closest dog in temperament to the old Cuban Bloodhounds. Reading my toughts you will get why I have this guess.

I just found this disagreement between you and Hugo.

Gun wrote:I personally would rather filas be tested on their ability to track and hunt big game and work cattle first, then their ability to guard. Guarding was really their secondary role they were just expected to also do, not what shaped them into what they are. In the last 50 years or so they've mostly just been bred to be guard dogs/pets/show dogs, and this is what has resulted in them losing functionality and getting so big. Really slowly becoming a different animal because the animal they were was a big game hunter and cattle dog first and foremost (and a hunter of slaves and natives, but we can lose that part).



Gun wrote:Guarding has been the main function of the Fila for a long time and is now his main function for sure (besides show contests). I personally think that the dog should be tested for the ability and the function a dog actually performs. I also think that the Fila is (or has been) a better guardian than hunter or cattle worker. hugo)


Me personally I guess that real suspicion against strangers, not fearbiting/fearing strangers, does come neither from guarding (guarding might be more a territorial thing) nor from hunting/prey drive (of course not from the latter), but from one thing, namely being a "one person breed". This point hasn´t much been mentioned in this discussion yet! But it seems to be an important point.
Now we can specutale a lot what made the Fila Brasileiro an one person breed, but obviously it is an one person breed for quite a long time now. This will always make the breed a much better Guardian provided that the dog is tough and brave, as it doesn´t trust people beside the owner and/or the family.
After talking to a female police officer lately the modern Malinois seems to be like that.
She is specialized in dogs and mentioned that the Malinois has both a crazy prey drive, is very tough and confident, but is way more complicated (or even dangerous) to strangers as he has this extremely close bond with her and beside her he doesn´t like anybody. Lol she said her husband needed three years to come close to her when her Malinois was around, while her GSD is way different concerning that.
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