Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby da pink on 28. September 2017, 08:26

No Pal, wasn't comparing the two dogs.

Just saying that, like the Gull Terr is an old breed that has lost its way in its homeland but been preserved in India, The owe seems to be an example of an old time European Bulldog but preserved in the USA

Can't help but wondering though, if the are truly the dogs brought over by the Conquistadors then why do they differ from the presa so much? Along with the name I know what I suspect
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby da pink on 2. May 2018, 13:18

Back on this one again, maybe it's my English sensibilities but it kind of gnaws at me, this "They're called English because they're Spanish" reasoning.


So we know both Spanish & English (& Portugese and Dutch) bulldogs (and wardogs) went to the Americas.

Looking at the dog in question
Image

Do they look more like a British Bulldog of yesteryear
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or a Spanish war dog?

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I think straight away we can say British, based off those.

Or if we go off descriptions
“Their dogs are enormous, with flat ears and long, dangling tongues. The color of their eyes is a burning yellow; their eyes flash fire and shoot off sparks. Their bellies are hollow, their flanks long and narrow. They are tireless and very powerful. They bound here and there, panting, with their tongues hanging out. And they are spotted like an ocelot.”

This to me (spots aside) says Alano, especially the yellow eyes (god knows why I link those with alanos)
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Dogs of this type traveled with Spanish explorers and were used as war dogs (as was their role in Eurasia before migration) in the subjugation of Indian (Native American) peoples, as well as in the capturing of slaves
and we can see the similarities here, perhaps more so than the British Bulldog, though in all honesty a cross of the two would be closest.

I've read that there's a theory the Catahoula is a descendent of these Spanish War dogs....the spots had to come from somewhere, right. I'd like to see where these sit on the gene tree when compared to Danes and Alanos/Presa
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And then we have British dogs being imported to be used to fight Indians as the dogs they had, apparently, weren't up to the job.....though I concede "this Country" could mean that part of the country (Pennsylvania) didn't have the dogs to do it, given OWE are solely from the South. (but even so, easier to transport from their than across the Atlantic)
Benjamin Franklin to James Read, 1755 wrote:"I can not omit to Submit to your Consideration the use that might be made of Dogs against our Savage Enemies; It would be needless to expect that our Foot Soldiers can overtake an Indian in the Woods, and their audacious attempts in attacking our Troops and settlements may, in a great Measure, be ascribed to the certainty of evading our Pursuit by their flight: a few Instances of Indians Seized and worried by Dogs, would, I presume, deter them more effectualy from a War with us, than all the Troops we could raise, and as we have not in this Country the Species of those animals, which would best answer this Purpose, I beg leave to recommend it to you, to have Fifty Couples of proper Hounds imported from Great Britain, with People who understand to train and manage them. They might be kept on the Frontiers, and a few given to Every Scouting Party, to discover the Ambushes of the Enemy, and direct the Pursuit: This requires that the men intended to follow the Dogs should be well mounted."


So in true keeping with my posts, loads of info with no clear answers, just confirmation of what we already knew....there's no firm answer, dogs get crossed, even the Spanish War Dogs probably had English blood in them anyway, the British Bulldogs had Spanish, but historically someone who knew more than us associated them more with the English than Spanish.

T
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby da pink on 2. May 2018, 14:34

And not really related to the OWE thing but we all remember this print
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And have discussed the non-Alaunt dogs before now....and come up with scent hounds. We were right "The realism of the dogs is astonishing; there are both boar hounds, and smaller bloodhounds."

Just struck me, they look identical to the dog on the left here. Which signifies summat, no doubt

Image
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby Gun on 2. May 2018, 17:48

Can we take a moment to appreciate how terrible the spaniards were in the new world? lol, seriously...

I was watching a thing the other day about gold, and it had this story of how some aztec (I think, or mayan or inca ... I suck at paying attention) king or whatever had some huge amount of gold and the spaniards pretend to befriend him, then take him hostage and kill a big bunch of his people, then promise to give him back unharmed if they are given all his gold, then his people gave them all the gold, and what do they do? Slowly strangle him to death and go home with the gold. Lol.

That stuff in that picture is fully accurate, they just massacred men, women and children that were peaceful and willing to cooperate and be friendly and even bend over backwards to keep the peace. Nope. Not happening. Fed them to dogs kicking and screaming. Stuff like this is so much more disturbing to ponder now I have kids. You'd think this was some twisted exaggeration by the liberal left or something but when you look into it it's just repeated atrocity after atrocity and it's worse than they've ever managed to depict in fictional retellings.

I think the scenthounds depicted in the top pic are related but different to the little fellow in the bottom pic. They're all spaniel-ish, but those in the top pic are curious because they're so big and seemingly bitey and mean. The bottom dog looks more like a normal spaniel. BTW "Spaniel" is derived from spain, spaniels are definitely a spanish invention.
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby da pink on 3. May 2018, 12:03

They were so horrific you have to kind of admire it.....they used to take slaves with them to butcher for their dogs so they always had fresh meat....fuck me, that's bad

I said they looked like Clumbers when we first talked about this print. SO we're agreed there...for once though a difference in thought. I think they're the same. The one in the Spanish prints looks like he's just gonna eat that child so just as mean and bitey.
I'd always thought they were Celtic (Brythonic Celt :) ) but wiki says hancock even thinks them Chinese?! But the name is Spanish, yes. Either way, that print is from around 1360....gotta be one of the earliest pictures of them? Funny how a Spaniels temperament has changed....funny too how they were known as bloodhounds....though I suppose it makes sense. They scented "blood". Interestig too how both prints, from two different countries 200 years apart use the same combo of dogs.
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby Gun on 3. May 2018, 13:47

What's strange is the other boardog/alaunt-looking ones were often referred to as bloodhounds as well. Maybe it was just like "pig dog", any dog used in any manner to track and catch poor miserable humans.

I agree the recurring combo is fascinating, and even knowing they chewed on innocent screaming children I have to say I really love the white dogs depicted in these artworks.

To me the spanielish dogs in the top pic look like they're about 100 lbs though, while the bottom pic appears to be your standard 25 lbs spaniel?
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby da pink on 3. May 2018, 14:49

It'd make sense, hounds used to track blood, cause blood?

Good point, forced to agree with you again. They're the same size as the alaunts in the French one, yet 1/2 the size or less in the Spanish. But 200 years apart and they're still using a recognisable duo of dogs types.
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby Gun on 4. May 2018, 21:31

That large spaniel dog is depicted very frequently in medieval artworks. It was obviously a very common widely used hunting dog. I feel like maybe "scenthounds" replaced those dogs and thats why they aren't around anymore? Just leaving little spaniels as the only residual trace. Scenthounds maybe coming from germany or?? There seems to be a lot of variety of scenthounds over that way, which is often a clue. You won't find "foxhounds" in the really old artworks, even knowing originally "foxhounds" were used on deer and called staghounds, but they still seemed to have appeared much later and the scenthound type is absent in english art once you go back a few hundred years.
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby da pink on 8. May 2018, 09:01

I’m away from a pc for a week (racing) but holy shit! That type does pop up so much - again I’m embarrassed

I seem to have formed my views & stopped looking. Shame on me

I’ll revisit this. Quick question...this spaniel type? Obviously very distinctive looks. They weren’t breeding for looks were they? I’ve read the whole “big ears push scent forward” thing but imo it’s just folklore
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby Gun on 10. May 2018, 14:35

I think the spaniels and scenthounds were just two different answers to the same question in two different areas. Evidently just as there is variation in scenthounds from bassets and dachshunds to plotthounds and bloodhounds, there seems to have been variation in the spaniel lineage as well which has since reduced to just the little silly buggers we today know as spaniels. This is my theory anyway. That these dogs in these pictures are an extinct large hunting spaniel, that was perhaps pretty tough and rugged, not an actual catch dog but roughish like the spaniel family's answer to a plotthound or coonhound.

Alternatively, they could just be drawing scenthounds weird.
Note though that scenthounds and spaniels are from different dna groupings, not a million miles apart but separate. The fact these dogs incidentally look exactly like giant spaniels rather than scenthounds is a bit much for me to dismiss as an art accident. I'd wager that the spanish, french and english probably had spaniel lineage scenting dogs (which btw includes pointers and setters) while central and eastern europe probably had scenthounds, and at some point the scenthounds came over to britain/france/spain and replaced the spanielish dogs at least for deer, boar, etc. The spaniel/pointer/setter lineage remaining "top dogs" for bird hunting. Just my theory.

I think the ear thing is probably somewhat legit, btw. Scent works in weird ways and being flapped about in the face of the dog by the ears probably does allow for them to have more time to analyse it's intricacies. The dogs with droopy ears are proven to be superior sniffers to wolves even though their actual olfactory receptors in their nasal cavities are I believe pretty similar.
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby sunnyAK on 11. May 2018, 00:33

da pink wrote:I’m away from a pc for a week (racing) but holy shit!


Do it like Valentino Rossi in his prime, but stay safe!
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby da pink on 11. May 2018, 13:09

Gun wrote:I think the spaniels and scenthounds were just two different answers to the same question in two different areas. Evidently just as there is variation in scenthounds from bassets and dachshunds to plotthounds and bloodhounds, there seems to have been variation in the spaniel lineage as well which has since reduced to just the little silly buggers we today know as spaniels. This is my theory anyway. That these dogs in these pictures are an extinct large hunting spaniel, that was perhaps pretty tough and rugged, not an actual catch dog but roughish like the spaniel family's answer to a plotthound or coonhound.

Alternatively, they could just be drawing scenthounds weird.
Note though that scenthounds and spaniels are from different dna groupings, not a million miles apart but separate. The fact these dogs incidentally look exactly like giant spaniels rather than scenthounds is a bit much for me to dismiss as an art accident. I'd wager that the spanish, french and english probably had spaniel lineage scenting dogs (which btw includes pointers and setters) while central and eastern europe probably had scenthounds, and at some point the scenthounds came over to britain/france/spain and replaced the spanielish dogs at least for deer, boar, etc. The spaniel/pointer/setter lineage remaining "top dogs" for bird hunting. Just my theory.

I think the ear thing is probably somewhat legit, btw. Scent works in weird ways and being flapped about in the face of the dog by the ears probably does allow for them to have more time to analyse it's intricacies. The dogs with droopy ears are proven to be superior sniffers to wolves even though their actual olfactory receptors in their nasal cavities are I believe pretty similar.

That all makes sense, apart from the ear thing.,..I'm still not convinced. Also supports the line of thinking that although the dogs had specialities they were all rounders. A European from the Middle Ages would have no time for a dog that would scent but not attack, not even bay
Medieval Print after medieval print showing this type of spaniel, you're right.
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Teaching them to hunt was either so common, or uncommon lol, it was worthy of note.(these all seem the spaniel type, but note the one with the earliest depiction of spots I've seen...only heard these mentioned on early Cuban Bloodhounds before)
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I like this, shows clearly the kind of long headed "evil" looking dogs we've mentioned before (then a more bully type and even a more "modern" type bloodhound sniffing away in the back)
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Look at them though......forerunner of the dogs used in the creation of the EBT? That long face and eyes...... purely speculative of course, but we've commented so many times on how recognisable that look is in a cross. We've also mentioned how they're more intense hunters, generally, than APBTs. This could explain that . .
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby da pink on 14. May 2018, 10:48

And we have a name! "Limer" (lymer, lyam hound) similar to the bandog in this respect; Named from the Middle English for leash - "lyam". They were always on a leash and slipped.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limer

And the white dogs are called "raches" - scent hounds too, would you believe?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rache
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby Gun on 18. May 2018, 13:06

da pink wrote:Scent hounds too, would you believe?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rache

Well, no, to be honest. I wouldn't.

Honestly in medieval times they were all over the shop with what they called things. Sometimes on the same page in the same book they'd call the same thing by different names. I'm thinking of how I've read "mastif" and "mastyve" on the same page in a middle ages dog book before. I'm pretty sure those white dogs were sighthound/farm bulldog dog mixes, and I believe this was the origin of the "boarhounds" which went on to become mastiffs.
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby da pink on 19. May 2018, 07:54

I know what you mean, but I do place some store in these writings. If you look at the first print in my post above I think we can see three types....two white & one brown. The brown is the limer obviously. There’s a white not too dissimilar in type I’m guessing is a Rache & then the bill grey type (we’re in agreement there) we know as the alaunt. So I believe they had white, pack hunting, scent hounds (similar in use to trailhounds maybe) but not all white hunting dogs were these.

I’m thinking now I get too caught up even trying to put a name like that to a type, it’s not accurate thinking. Like anyone mildly interested in this uses type over breed but still think too rigidly. Like “the alaunt was a bull
lurcher type that eventually became the great great (amongst others)” well yes. But that’s just what medieval Europeans called them. It’s a handy label but alaunts, limers & raches were used all over for millennia under different names at different times. So there’s nothing particularly unique about an alaunt
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby Gun on 19. May 2018, 12:03

da pink wrote:I know what you mean, but I do place some store in these writings. If you look at the first print in my post above I think we can see three types....two white & one brown. The brown is the limer obviously. There’s a white not too dissimilar in type I’m guessing is a Rache & then the bill grey type (we’re in agreement there) we know as the alaunt. So I believe they had white, pack hunting, scent hounds (similar in use to trailhounds maybe) but not all white hunting dogs were these.

I’m thinking now I get too caught up even trying to put a name like that to a type, it’s not accurate thinking. Like anyone mildly interested in this uses type over breed but still think too rigidly. Like “the alaunt was a bull
lurcher type that eventually became the great great (amongst others)” well yes. But that’s just what medieval Europeans called them. It’s a handy label but alaunts, limers & raches were used all over for millennia under different names at different times. So there’s nothing particularly unique about an alaunt

Yeah I just think the naming was extremely inconsistent and unreliable. Not just changing from region to region, but also like sir george would hear the duke of thistlethwaite talking about his hounds and hear "raches" and glance over and see a lymer and assume those were raches and next time describe lymers as raches, just because he wasn't much of a dog guy and didn't give a shit, maybe the duke knew what he was talking about but then sir george actually wrote something and that's what we're reading now. And multiply this kind of chinese whisper effect compounding on itself repeatedly over and over again through history and it becomes a bit of a fool's errand to work with the names. I try to read between the lines a bit and if something doesn't fit with the tapestry I've carefully pieced together over the decades then instead of it completely destroying the foundations of my beliefs I just assume human error. Could be a mistake on my part, who knows... I feel like it isn't though.

The work of hunting big majestic animals with dogs is still going on and I think that can teach us a lot about the history, and I say this because I know the hunters are doing their dog breeding mindlessly and letting it just take shape by itself, and then I see consistencies with their dogs and dogs around the world and dogs through history. Like we're in the other thread talking about "the animal" that is man, I think he talks a lot of shit but things are clearer if you just observe and analyse him like any other animal, after understanding he is divided into many different animals of course.
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Re: Old White English (White English Bulldog)

Postby da pink on 21. May 2018, 10:58

Undoubtedly....also Sir George would have fancied his own raches, you know to fit in, but wanted the best raches ever. Big mean looking ones with great ears. He wasn't going to hunt so they didn;t need to be good. Then when the Duke is off hunting Sir George is bored and has the local bard write about his dogs and get's a painter in to capture them forever. . . .
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