The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

The Alaunt from the very beginning

Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby Gun on 1. December 2014, 04:50

freed wrote:
Gun wrote:Their "horse stopping lebrels" perhaps like this-
Image


This one looks stunning. Although I guess you need a lot of them to stop a horse.

Not really. In fact there would be no point in having more than two as they'd just get in eachother's way otherwise and have no where to hold, and I'd expect one good example to singlehandedly be able to catch a horse.

Size isn't everything, in fact it seems the bigger the prey animal the less big a dog can afford to be. Bull catching dogs are smaller again. While boar dogs can afford to be a lot larger, and the biggest dogs of all it seems were used to catch men, often being over 150 lbs. A horse is somewhere between a deer and bull on the scale of things, and unsurprisingly somewhere between the dogs suited to catching those animals is where you'll find a good horse tackling dog.

Keep in mind the dog I posted is not actually a horse tackling dog nor recently descended from any such dog, it's just my perception that it's of the right type and build. Realistically it's no doubt a lot MORE impressive than the average horse catching dog from the past. There was no need for them to be that beautiful. These are dogs in australia which do recently descend down from feral horse catching dogs largely unchanged-
Image
Image
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These are boar catching dogs, but their recent ancestors were horse catching dogs and the same animal, so I actually suspect these dogs are probably most like what horse catching dogs would have been like. Be it those of the conquistadors or the romans or in the civil war or whatever.
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby da pink on 1. December 2014, 13:45

Gun wrote:Actually the middle dog is british, was trying to not be too aussie biased.
Obviously I do love aussie dogs but honestly I get just as excited by other dog scenes around the world that follow the same principles. The british lurcher scene being one such example. Historically such working dog cultures were the norm.



We still have good lurchers, but with the way the law's changed already, I can see our heritage of hunting dogs (and they've always been lurchers and terriers, and very common round my part of the country) slowly going the way of the Staffy etc

(and the day ain't dawned when an Aussie isn't Aussie biased ;) )
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby da pink on 1. December 2014, 13:51

Matt Livingston wrote:Yes Da Pink. That looks like our Brindle Bull It's not so much of lurcher type and broader through the chest, but still athletic and probably capable of running well. I'm like Gun I like dogs from all over and of different types so long as they can function. I'am admittedly partial to the OWE and BB. But that's because their lineage is like my own with roots from working,fighting,and war dogs from every nation that settled in the South Eastern U.S as well as the Carolina dogs added so they could handle the heat. The dogs here are almost as Creole as I 'am. But I really like the Bull lurcher types of Britain and Australia. Because they are the midway between my 2 favorite type of dogs and have a balance of speed and power. Just like in vehicles I prefer pick ups or sports cars although I wouldn't want a hybrid of those. Well I have owned a lowrider pick up w Pink and Grey Gradient paint job but that's beside the point. lol



You'll always feel a kinship with dogs from your area. The dog I posted is a recreation, and I have no idea as to if it can work. . . but certainly looks so, if the temperament is right.

I love the Aussie dogs, just so rough 'n' ready and always seem to have that bit of EBT (my favourite breed) showing through.

(we won't mention your low rider...but I get ya, I have bikes for speed and a pick up for, um, driving round in. Sold my sports car to buy it and don't regret it. It's not pink though)
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby Matt Livingston on 2. December 2014, 01:17

Yes Freed some do,especially in areas like mine where the White English have more presa type influence. See in rural areas these dogs are much more like types than breeds. Lots of people breed brindle bulls in to White English lines when there is to much white on them. Nobody wants a deaf dog. Also White English are Bred to Brindles with no white, the theory is if there's to much color on the dog It will be too hot in temperament. We all know this is not necessarily true but tradition rules.
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby Matt Livingston on 2. December 2014, 01:35

Da Pink I like those Bull Arabs they show a lot EBT that's a breed I have always been curious about as they are not common here the only bull and terrier type around are Pit bulls. I've always heard the EBT was more man aggressive than dog aggressive. So do they make good guard dogs? I think they have an impressive look, of course I would like to see one a little longer in the leg.
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby da pink on 2. December 2014, 15:14

I suppose they are slightly less amenable, or at least slower to make friends, than a SBT, but they are still very affectionate, personable dogs. I wouldn't say they are particularly more man aggressive than any other breed. Mine was the best dog I ever had. . . . and not too short in the legs! She'd show no aggression to other dogs, but would take no shit at all, and could back it up.

Great dogs. I even love the big egg headed short legged "show" type, but you can find more athletic examples if you shop around.
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby da pink on 2. December 2014, 15:20

To me this is a great looking EBT,

Image
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby freed on 2. December 2014, 16:03

Matt Livingston wrote: I've always heard the EBT was more man aggressive than dog aggressive. So do they make good guard dogs? I think they have an impressive look, of course I would like to see one a little longer in the leg.


I have always heard that especially in some crosses they make very good guard dogs.
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby da pink on 2. December 2014, 16:45

I think it's less outright aggression, but rather they're very protective of their family
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby Gun on 2. December 2014, 21:55

They're still pretty human friendly on the whole, in my experience, but just no where near as submissive and "melt in your hands" as a pitbull or sbt. Just more cocky and hard headed with people, hard to discipline. Like a pitbull will have it's heart broken if you get angry at it but an ebt will just keep smiling and if you punch it in the head it will just think you're playing a game and start trying to catch your fists in it's mouth, Lol (hypothetically, I'm not going around raining punches on ebts). They're not intimidated or submissive to strangers, but not necessarily unfriendly either.

I think it would help produce a better guard dog than an apbt, because there is less counter-productive stuff, but still it should probably be crossed to a more guardy type to get a real guard dog. I don't consider the ebt some super suspicious natural guard dog. I had a dog that was largely ebt with some boxer and old english sheepdog(weird I know) and it was a super guard dog, backed itself in a fight with any man (except my dad) and wanted to test it's mettle any chance it got, and also actively guarded the property. I think the guardian nature of it, funnily enough, actually came from the old english sheepdog, but the ebt is what made it a true fighter of men, and the ebt blood in no way hindered the guardian nature of the OES like apbt may have.
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby Matt Livingston on 3. December 2014, 01:30

I know what you mean GUN the 3 breeds in the that dog would only compliment each other. I think the OES and Boxer would add sense and athleticism as well as protective instinct and like you said the EBT would give it the hardware. To produce a dog like that with a Pit would be harder but not impossible. You would really have to shop around. I don't know about other places but here a lot of Pit men produce substandard dogs by pit standards because they show defensive drive and some man aggression. All because some the lines they use are not fighting lines originally, but farm dogs. They usually kill them unless somebody wants it, then they wouldn't ever tell anybody it came from their stock. Those Pits have a temperament like you described in the EBT.

By the way that's not the strangest mix I've heard of try a Rottweiler and Cocker Spaniel. A friend of mine owned one. It sounds ugly, but was actually a nice looking compact dog.
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby sunnyAK on 9. August 2017, 01:18

1911 W. Gilbey THE ALAUNTE
Image
I hope "bild.me" is not like "stupid photobucket" and won´t one day start deleting all pics, but as we never know, here the text again without the orginal print.
These dogs, it is thought, were of Caucasian origin.
They were used for warlike purposes, and, in the days
when bear and boar were hunted were employed to
grapple with those animals. \\'hether they were used
for the pursuit of deer is at least doubtful
Three kinds were recognised: the " Alaunte gentle,"
the "hunting Alaunte" and the "Alaunte of the
butcheries." The hunting variety was shaped like a
greyhound, but was of heavier build ; the head was
large and short, the eye small and the jaw square ; the
ears were trimmed and pointed ; in colour it was white,
grey or blackish. The dog wdiich, on a white coat, had
black markings near the head and above the tail was
most liked
The Alaunte of the butcheries was a drover's dog, and
was used with cattle ; it was also employed for bull- and
bear-baiting
The Alaunte was prone to attack domestic animals.
The Master of Game says :
" It is better shaped and
stronger for harm than any other beast," but it was
treacherous and foolish and "of evil understanding."
A good hunting Alaunte would run as fast as a greyhound,
and would "catch and hold." Mr. Baillie
Grohman, in his edition of The Master oj Game, suggests
that this dog was very like the German boarhound. It
may have been the dog from which the German
boarhound is descended.
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby da pink on 1. May 2018, 14:24

I've always been interested in the term & history of the word "alaunt"......it's a given (I think, I lose track) that the "Alaunt Proper" (as named on this board circa 2014) made it's way into Western European dogs thru' ancient Britain and the Sarmatians who were stationed there.

There's long been some connection between these Sarmatians and the Arthurian Legends....my own view had been these troops were so different in appearance or usage to other cavalry of the time they entered the Islands' consciousness as the Knights of the Round Table (they were heavy cavalry so it all fits nicely so far)

I've stumbled upon some writings of Sarmatian folklore & legends and there's some clear parallels between these and the Arthurian tales (swords in stones, lady in lakes, swords being thrown in lakes, magic cups)It's obvious that they were what the legends of Arthur were based on. Seems to me if these troops could enter British culture so emphatically then they were pretty influential in all other aspects too. We know from the findings at Vindolanda that (ethnically non-Roman) Roman Forces bred dogs extensively using native and imported dogs. I think its pretty much a given, then, that Alani dogs were bred into British dogs.

So that's pretty much it then, no? Both the men & dogs were so influential that that name lasted alongside dogs with that breeding for the next 1000 years or so? Circumstantial yet pretty solid evidence for ancestral Alani Dog blood in Western European dogs, yes?

No...afraid not....
Many of the parallels or similarities between Arthurian and Sarmatian tales only occur in writings dating from and after Geoffrey of Monmouth and do not affect the core issue of historicity. Some of the strongest similarities of Arthurian and Sarmatian tales occur in Thomas Malory's Le Morte D'Arthur, when Arthur and his warriors had already evolved into "knights in shining armour". Critics conclude that Sarmatian influence was limited to the post-Galfridian development of the tales instead of historical basis, if at all


This basically says that the Romance Element of Arthurian Legends as popularly known were added to dark age myth in the 12th century & were based on Sarmatian Legends. Interestingly this was roughly around the same time that the moniker "Alaunt" was starting to be used for tough hunting dogs. So whilst I'm sure ancient British Dogs were bred with ancient Alani dogs and that, for whatever reason, these people created great interest amongst ancient Britons I'm almost as sure the more modern use of Alaunt is merely due to a medieval emergence of interest in that period - not a continuation from Roman times. (Which is pretty much what Gun says earlier in this post, but in about 300 less words)
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby da pink on 2. May 2018, 10:39

....just realised I totally discounted France & Spain in my ramblings above.

Doesn't really change anything. Gaul & Iberia were settled by Alans too, at a similar time. This time by colonisation/conquering and, perhaps, leaving a more noticeable heritage of their dogs. But essentially it's the same: they came, presumably bred their dogs which were forgot about for 1000 yearsish until for some reason the Alans became popular in writings and the dogs became known as such.

Seems to me the Germanic peoples had developed very similar dogs themselves under the name "beissers" - can only think they didn't first name these Alaunts as they didn't have the historical connection.

The more I think on this the more I'm certain the name "alaunt" reflects a fashion rather than a continuous bloodline. They liked the link and could point o one, no matter how forced. Similar to how some call their Bully Kuttas the ancient Assyrian mastiff.....


Unless of course Brittania, Gaul & Iberia all did continue this semi-mythical bloodline thru from the 5th Century, Beissers were unrelated and Bully Kuttas aren't mongrel Euro boarhounds
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby Gun on 2. May 2018, 18:14

I've been interested in scottish highland cows lately -
Image
I was surprised to learn how primitive and wild their behaviour is, indicating this isn't some silly "breed" made recently to look funny, but most likely the true native cattle of britain. Like ALL cattle would have been this in britain until the romans came. It made me think about how most likely britain probably had dogs like this cow. Dogs like the wolfhound/deerhound in appearance, only more understated. That was probably ALL british dogs before the romans came. The british were a pretty primitive wild people at that time so the idea they had too much variety doesn't make sense.
I mean the hunter gatherers that lived in britain 15 000 odd years ago after the ice age, not the groups from before the ice age (which were actually black people with probably some kind of basenji or dingo like dog). Around this time britain was still connected to europe by a land bridge known as "doggerland", and probably ALL north western europe at that time had scottish highland cows and deerhound/wolfhound type dogs. Doggerland went under water about 8000 years ago, and these relic cows and dogs were kind of preserved while a big bunch of shit went down on mainland europe changing both the dogs and cows. This is where you get your celts and your anglo saxons and alans and etc and whatever dogs each of them had, at this point I don't know. I feel there is a way to find out and one day we will. We will be able to place every type of dog to one of these groups and a specific time when they arose. But all of the variety in britain came from these waves at different times. The celts, the romans, the anglo saxons, the normans... each one bringing their own dogs and mixing would have taken place, only not so much up north which somehow remained kind of isolated and in a way stuck in time like a window into the past.

Notice I'm not attributing the celts with the wolfhound/deerhound even though I think a lot of people have in the past. I don't think it adds up.
There's an article here about how dna evidence indicated scottish and irish people are much less "celtic" than they think, that celts had a tiny, almost negligible, impact on the population, and instead most of the dna of most people in scotland and ireland pre-dates the celtic invasion. I think the dogs and cows do too.

Oh here's the article
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/mythsofbritishancestry
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby da pink on 2. May 2018, 19:11

That’s why I always bitch about the term “Celt” on here. Cos the Celtic nations (modern) clearly are Celtic, which isn’t the same as ancient European Celts, but was at the time, or wasn’t, depending on what definition is being used.

I can’t read the article. Apparently I’ve reached my limit with these today?

If it’s the one about Basques then yes, it turns a lot of “history “ upside down


Most English come from the same stock too, not various Germans,

I’ve touched on the link between the Iberian peninsula before. It’s like this islands inhabitants feel an affinity with it, we’ve been connected thru history


(I’ll come back to the cattle etc later. On my phone waiting for the squat rack )
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby Gun on 2. May 2018, 21:17

I think different people (and dogs and cows) should be thought of as representing a "time" as much as a place. Where my wife is from for example, the papua new guinean highlands, makes her a prehistoric human. There was a time when EVERYONE was like her, even people in england, all humans outside of africa, for a time, were like her. What happened with the papua new guinea highlands is the people became isolated, on an island and up high mountains protected by impenetrable forest. There they stayed locked in time, representing around 40 000 BC up until the present day. Focussing on the place, papua new guinea, kind of misses the big picture. This is simply where some eventually found sanctuary, but more accurately they are "eurasians" circa 40 000 BC (give or take).
To a lesser degree this is true for britain, their isolation made them relics relative to the cosmopolitan "happening" mainland. Especially up in scotland and ireland. It seems somehow the "basque" people on the mainland also managed to isolate themselves, and in doing so they still today represent a time period. Maybe 6000 bc or so, I don't know for sure. But I think this is actually a useful way of looking at ethnic groups. At one stage ALL the people of western europe would have been "basque". Then these new little groups pop up and spread around and replace the older models, then they might find sanctuary in some little corner when another one pops up, etc etc and so on. Making all the ethnic groups kind of like "year models" more than representative of this or that place.
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby da pink on 3. May 2018, 11:17

We need to disagree more, again liking everything you say....the people representing a time, very well put.

It would seem that some early Britons were representative of Ice Age South Western Europeans. It's a minefield of conflicting information and ideas though. The Anglo Saxon Chronicles starts with something like "There are 5 peoples in Briton: English, British (Welsh), Scottish (Irish), Pict (Scottish) and Latin. The first were Britons from Armenia and then the Picts from Scythia"

I've never believed the Armenia thing. I subscribe to the theory they meant Armorica (Brittany). (The "Latins" were simply not there originally, but yes, prior to the Saxons. The English, likewise.I suspect they didn't mean English in it's current sense, they couldn't have, Basque is what I'm thinking)

I have no idea about the Scythian roots of the Picts but am kind of dismissive. They spoke a language too close to P-celtic for this to hold much water for me. Plus it doesn't seem to tie in with the genetics (but I disagree with that study too...more later ;) ) however what is intriguing is that the Alans were a Scythian people. It would explain much, much better why British folklore is so similar to theirs than it being the result of some 5500 troops stationed there for 350 years. And if the Pict bit be true. .. .then why not the Armenian? It would further explain this difference between Brittannia and Gaul.

So my potted version of "Celtic" history.

Ice age Basques wandered up to Brittania. There were already Gaels there (a Celtic People). Time passed, Brittania became an island & the Basques, by culture and language, became Celtic. In the North of Scotland they became Pictish, in South East Scotland and most of what is now England they became Brittonic. This pushed the Gaels into Western Scotland, the Isle of man and Ireland. These peoples were speaking Goedelic (Gaelic) Brythonic (British) and Pictish (a sister form of Brythonic)


Waves of Gauls (a Celtic People) from Central Europe moved Westwards made modern France and Belgium their homeland and what was Basque country, along with the rest of the Iberian Peninsula became (again by culture and language) Celtic. These were CeltIberians speaking a form of Celtic different to the Insular Celts, but related. In the East the Balkans and Asia Minor the Gaulish migrations continued and they became another Celtic People (Galatians) We can see then, Celtic basically just means Non-Germanic European. 100s of peoples with their own identities broadly lumpable into 5 or 6 main groups.

In Armorica (what is now Brittany) and Galicia (now Galicia!) Brittonic peoples remained. I have touched before on the Atlantic Frontier and the trade routes of the Britons. I can't decide whether these areas were an example of this "Time Freeze" and are a population left over from the Ice Age, were colonisers from Briton or a touch of both. Either way, Brittany to this day carries the name and language of the Britons. Once more, that little time freeze.

What I don't buy from this genetic study is that the Angles and Saxons had little genetic effect. I know i'm arguing against science, but the (relatively modern) history and place names and language all point to a much more significant influx.


So separated by a tiny Channel of water the British Isles did develop differently from their Continental Cousins. As you say, the shaggy Wolf/Deer hound type does seem to be uniquely British. Other European dogs with long coats tend to be of the Spitz type. Just wondering here...IF the Picts WERE from Scythia and Britons from Armenia....could this explain the coat? Not unlike LGDs from the Caucasus?

The Highland Cattle again, seem to be uniquely British. Isolated as discussed by that and, given their location within these Islands, isolated further and dare I say "frozen" again. The only thing that seems odd about these (and I know NOWT about Bovine History I have to say) is that we did have other cattle in ancient times. This breed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Park_cattle is a recreation of a 2000 year old British breed. You can see how it could have been bred from Aurochs. I googled Scythian cattle, hoping they'd look like Highland cattle but no...
Image
That would be too easy. A quick google doesn't find ANY other long haired cattle without a clear relation to the Highland. Interesting
Last edited by da pink on 3. May 2018, 12:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby da pink on 3. May 2018, 12:50

EDIT: I'm feeling embarrassed. I formed my ideas above about 10 years back, whenever the Basque study came out. I'd always written off the Scythian/Armenian link as meh, writing off these historical links to the Roman Auxilleries....just a quick search today tells me there is a LOT behind this. I'm gonna say my view is still the same but amended slightly. I'd go with now the Brittonic Celts (which imo includes the Picts) differed from their Gaelic (and Gaulish) counterparts due both to influx the Basques & a peoples from the Caucasus)
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby Gun on 3. May 2018, 13:00

Just assuming the history of that white cow is true (and from what we know about dogs, this might be a bad idea, but we'll run with it), that they were there 2000 years ago, this could mean they came with the celts either 2000 bc or 500 bc (there were apparently 2 celtic waves?? Please note I actually am fully new to this celts and picts and basques and gauls and etc so bear with my ignorance, I definitely don't know what I'm talking about so lets just start from that point).

I suspect the hairy scottish highland cows are older still, that they were already there waiting for the celts and their white cows. The natives of britain in deep pre-history had cattle, and I just have a strong inkling this is what they had. It's mostly evident in the behaviour of them. They don't just graze grass but also browse tree leaves and shrubs, and generally just behave like an ancient wild animal.
Maybe watch this video of them fighting to get what I'm talking about-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHNKAa_0RBg
It could be an illusion but I can't help but see these things as being older than those white cows, and most likely the cattle that lived alongside the earliest graziers in britain maybe 7000 years ago. These earliest graziers were basically hunter gatherers just dipping their toes in agriculture, they weren't clearing forests or anything, so it makes sense they'd have these primitive wild cattle eating leaves and bark in the primeval woodlands. I'd suspect these more normal looking and behaving white park cattle came later with more advanced land-clearing graziers. When exactly I wouldn't dare speculate, but after furry highland cattle is something I suspect pretty strongly.

Who knows? Maybe the people who brought those short coated white cattle also brought short coated white dogs, that typical bully-grey looking "alaunt" dogs? Just a wild baseless idea, but might be the case.

As you say, the shaggy Wolf/Deer hound type does seem to be uniquely British. Other European dogs with long coats tend to be of the Spitz type. Just wondering here...IF the Picts WERE from Scythia and Britons from Armenia....could this explain the coat? Not unlike LGDs from the Caucasus?

At some point obviously all people came through the middle east to get anywhere out of africa, however going back to the time thing I think the hairy dogs of britain would pre-date the lgds of the middle east. Just by type, being hunting dogs as opposed to specialised sheep guarding dogs. They aren't leisure hunting dogs but survival dogs, still the dogs of choice when settlers embarked out on new frontiers and had to survive off the land, and I think they represent a hunter/gatherer time in history. When the ancestors of the british passed through the middle east I suspect there were no domestic sheep at all, let alone LGDs. They most certainly had simple pariah dingo dogs (the canaan dog perhaps) living in the area with black tribal people, and at some point they have turned into more elite hunting dogs, and spread around (including up to britain) and much later the middle east started getting these specialised LGDs out of dingo like dogs that remained.

At some point there'd be a common ancestor to the wolfhounds and lgds, but as the dna charts suggest its way way way back. Also I don't think their coats are really similar at all. LGDs have that double undercoat or fluffy coat depending on which lineage, while wolfhounds and deerhounds have that wirey shaggy coat which is just fundamentally very different to the short double undercoats and fluffy coats of the assorted LGDs (weirdly it has more in common with the scottish highland cow than it does other dogs).
Different again are the actual short coats with no double undercoat. You do have to imagine these dogs come from a hot place. Indus valley maybe? Bully kuttas? lol...

Ice age Basques wandered up to Brittania. There were already Gaels there (a Celtic People). Time passed, Brittania became an island & the Basques, by culture and language, became Celtic. In the North of Scotland they became Pictish, in South East Scotland and most of what is now England they became Brittonic. This pushed the Gaels into Western Scotland, the Isle of man and Ireland. These peoples were speaking Goedelic (Gaelic) Brythonic (British) and Pictish (a sister form of Brythonic)

Just on the ice age, again I don't know anything about basques and gaels and etc, but I do now about pre-historic black people (one of my favourite animals lol #noracist) and we need to understand britain had no people during the ice age, but black people before and directly after. "Cheddar man" was a post-ice-age black british person. A primitive tribal hunter gatherer that most likely (definitely) had a dingo like dog. He was replaced around 8000 bc or so by a group I couldn't name, but they were very primitively agricultural, presumably white or at least caucasian, and with, I believe, scottish highland cows and wolfhounds. At the time of all this britain wasn't even an island, and these people would have been spread around western europe and THE people of europe. Later "doggerland" gets submerged and some get temporarily isolated on the now british isles, and that's where my historical knowledge cuts off. I know natural pre-history, but I don't know hardly anything about the various european groups from this period around 2000 bc onwards. What has clearly happened though is various waves have invaded the british isles, and also emerged on mainland europe here and there and invaded each other over and over again, putting us in this mess where we can't trace the various dogs to their rightful people.
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby Gun on 3. May 2018, 13:02

da pink wrote:EDIT: I'm feeling embarrassed. I formed my ideas above about 10 years back, whenever the Basque study came out. I'd always written off the Scythian/Armenian link as meh, writing off these historical links to the Roman Auxilleries....just a quick search today tells me there is a LOT behind this. I'm gonna say my view is still the same but amended slightly. I'd go with now the Brittonic Celts (which imo includes the Picts) differed from their Gaelic (and Gaulish) counterparts due both to influx the Basques & a peoples from the Caucasus)

Don't be embarrassed, even as I was writing the above I was cringing knowing it will clearly be emphatically wrong in like 10 minutes. Lol. It's all just a mental exercise where hopefully we edge slightly closer to the truth gradually over the next decade or so. Its very obvious to me you know way way more about basques and scythians and romans and brittonic celts etc etc etc, I will definitely bow to your knowledge on that stuff regardless.
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby da pink on 3. May 2018, 14:22

The more I'm reading the more I think that first wave of "Celts" were the Scythians (Really loose use of the name, I know), (I'm thinking now the Basque connection is that they were Scythian too.) These people did have cattle like the White Park. Domesticated Aurochs perhaps?

The Highlands do seem primitive, to my untutored eye. The grazing thing makes perfect sense in that respect. This minutes working hypothesis is around 8000bc the Cheddar Gorge type people came from who knows where with the Highland type. Don't ask me about the Gaels cos they don't fit in easily with that

I know that ancient Britons considered White cattle hugely prestigious (please don't ask for a source) so yeah, that could tie in with white dogs (the dogs of nobility remember)

Hmm, shame on me. I always thought wolfhounds had a double coat. FFS Pinky...get a grip. However I wasn't proposing some CAO in ancient Brrittania....just maybe a link of the longer, course, hair. I was wrong. :)

A primitive tribal hunter gatherer that most likely (definitely) had a dingo like dog. He was replaced around 8000 bc or so by a group I couldn't name, but they were very primitively agricultural, presumably white or at least caucasian, and with, I believe, scottish highland cows and wolfhound
My field of interest starts after this. . . but wasn't Cheddar Man from around 8000bc? I'm thinking his descendents were in Britain until the Scythian arrival? I'm trying to work out how to convince myself they became the Gaels but, no, nuffin

Don't be embarrassed, even as I was writing the above I was cringing knowing it will clearly be emphatically wrong in like 10 minutes. Lol. It's all just a mental exercise where hopefully we edge slightly closer to the truth gradually over the next decade or so. Its very obvious to me you know way way more about basques and scythians and romans and brittonic celts etc etc etc, I will definitely bow to your knowledge on that stuff regardless.


I was all "it's like this" when I should know better. There's no black and white. That's what makes all this so fun. The lack of answers. You know human pre-history much better, also animal history and dogs...however I am pretty decent on dark age stuff. Between us we've from Creation to the middle ages kind of covered ;0
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby da pink on 3. May 2018, 14:43

I'm going mental......I went round the houses looking for evidence of Scythians in ancient Britain. In the end the similarities of legends and art peruaded me....to then find on bloody wiki (where I sually start)
A genetics study from an Oxford University research team in 2006 claimed that the majority of Britons, including many of the English, are descended from a group of tribes which arrived from Iberia around 5000 BC, prior to the spread of Celts into western Europe.[4] However, three major genetic studies in 2015 have instead shown that haplogroup R1b in western Europe, most common in traditionally Celtic-speaking areas of Atlantic Europe like Ireland and Brittany, would have largely expanded in massive migrations from the Indo-European homeland, the Yamna culture in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, during the Bronze Age along with carriers of Indo-European languages like proto-Celtic. Unlike previous studies, large sections of autosomal DNA were analyzed in addition to paternal Y-DNA markers
This didn't perturb me, as my above post....I surmised the Basques had these genetics too, after all we know about the migrations of these people to Spain.

But. . .
One of these movements occurred in the Bronze Age, when pastoralists from the Steppe - on the eastern periphery of the continent - travelled west en masse. This migration probably spread Indo-European languages across Europe, affecting the central and northern parts of the continent to a greater extent than the south.

While the genomes of French and Spanish individuals showed evidence of this eastern genetic input, those of Basques did not.

they were the only people in bloody Europe who weren't

So the study of 2006 Gun posted earlier? I'm not sure what it means...clear as mud
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby sunnyAK on 4. May 2018, 00:43

Wow, so much to read. :o Great job Gun & da pink :!:

P.S.: I don´t know why I have missed this thread the last days. :?
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby sunnyAK on 4. May 2018, 02:37

Gun wrote:The alani had one type of dog, a livestock guardian/herder/guardian/wardog/hunting dog... a primitive allrounder type of agricultural dog, like everyone else of their era (excluding more primitive societies which simply had pariah scavenger/part time hunter type dogs).


Hi bro, I came along one of your first posts here and as I really like "allround type elite dogs", or in other words, dogs that are not only specialized in one discipline, but are able to be successful in a number of areas, how would such a dog look like, or are there any breeds that would make pretty good guardians, personal protectors and hunters as well?
I leave out the war dog, as I guess in old times a dog that is good in the three different areas, could also be a good war dog!
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby Gun on 4. May 2018, 21:48

sunnyAK wrote:
Gun wrote:The alani had one type of dog, a livestock guardian/herder/guardian/wardog/hunting dog... a primitive allrounder type of agricultural dog, like everyone else of their era (excluding more primitive societies which simply had pariah scavenger/part time hunter type dogs).


Hi bro, I came along one of your first posts here and as I really like "allround type elite dogs", or in other words, dogs that are not only specialized in one discipline, but are able to be successful in a number of areas, how would such a dog look like, or are there any breeds that would make pretty good guardians, personal protectors and hunters as well?
I leave out the war dog, as I guess in old times a dog that is good in the three different areas, could also be a good war dog!

I guess you could start with primitive dogs like spitz breeds. I mean how good do we need them to be at these tasks? Everything dogs ever became is bottled up, albeit diluted, in the earliest dogs (and the wolf, for that matter).
Alternatively you can reassemble the pieces with a mongrel. I guess herders would fit the bill too, to me they are really like primitive dogs even if they technically aren't that primitive, they are fairly unchanged in their balance of attributes and inclinations.
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby sunnyAK on 7. May 2018, 23:21

I also had a hearder in mind. They are pretty versatile dogs, but I had a "cattle hearder" in mind.
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby da pink on 8. May 2018, 08:57

I wanna pick guns’ brains on this again...but I will be bringing it back round to dogs

But Gun. Cheddar man, does the time frame sit right that he’s probably one of these basques mentioned by Oppenheimer?

Obviously the domestication of sheep & cattle revolutionised dogs

Prior to this, what Role do you think they took (dogs that is) pure hunters & war dogs?
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby Gun on 10. May 2018, 13:34

da pink wrote:I wanna pick guns’ brains on this again...but I will be bringing it back round to dogs

But Gun. Cheddar man, does the time frame sit right that he’s probably one of these basques mentioned by Oppenheimer?

Cheddar man's a bit of a weirdo. He's one of the original natives of western europe that came straight out of africa, but it's like he was starting to adapt to europe and based on his dna they say he had light coloured eyes (likely blue) but still black skin and curly hair. He was from 9000 years ago, which places him as coexisting with possibly basques (*or whoever the earliest white forest-farmers were) but he was probably part of a population that the *basques were in the process of destroying at that time. He himself, the individual, had some kind of bone infection possibly from some kind of introduced disease and also he had his skull crushed in by a blunt object. Maybe from some white newcomer? Some liberal speculation ofcourse. But I think his people were largely erradicated with just a tiny bit of their dna prevailing in the population that replaced them. Pretty standard stuff, as seen today in like indonesia for example, or india. The real natives are gone, but an echo of them remains in the dna of the invaders that erradicated them. Cheddar man, even in his time, was a bit of a relic that was dying out.

Cheddar man was a pure hunter gatherer with no farming of any kind, dogs his only domesticated animal. Most likely a now extinct/replaced spitz/pariah type. Having said that, maybe we shouldn't rule out cheddar man having a primitive shaggy dog somewhere between pariah and wolfhound. I don't think so, but you never know. He could be the source of the "shag". Someone was.

Obviously the domestication of sheep & cattle revolutionised dogs

Prior to this, what Role do you think they took (dogs that is) pure hunters & war dogs?

I think the only dogs to pre-date sheep and cattle would be spitz/pariah types, maybe primitive sighthounds, MAYBE. All these primitive dogs, even the sighthounds, were multipurpose. Not highly refined hunting dogs like today's sighthounds but with guardian inclinations and also some healthy self-preserving "bay dog" tendencies and etc. Probably a little scrappy too. You can see such dogs in the azawakh. A sighthound by appearance but with all it's primitive allrounder-instincts in tact. It's debatable whether even it really pre-dates sheep and cattle though. Maybe there was actually only spitz breeds before cattle and sheep, and even I guess for the first little while after cattle and sheep. Spitz types would have been doing a (relatively) shitty job of herding, livestock guarding, guarding, fighting/war, hunting, etc etc for a while which would have started the evolution of new types. I think the first split was primitive sighthound like the azawakh, and from there you soon got specialised livestock guardians start emerging like the akbash, and herding dogs like collies, and also more hunt-oriented sighthounds, like probably the early ancestors of wolfhounds/deerhounds. Separately early herders split off from spitz type dogs somewhere.

The original dogs were almost role-less. This is something a lot of people don't get. Man didn't tame dog for his use, first dog just settled in like an unwanted moocher, gradually revealing his worth over time. In papua new guinea, which is again like a window into pre-history, the dogs are just this nuisance barely tolerated for the most part, with just the odd hunter teaming up with the odd good dog, while most dogs just wander around avoiding kicks. Puppies might find playmates in children but then they grow up to be wild pariahs scavenging potato skins and human shit from the settlements. Again some become hunting dogs, but this isn't the purpose of the population or why it's there. The dogs are there because they chose to be there and evolved to cunningly coexist. Frankly, and remember how much I love dogs, but not dissimilar to rats. The origins of the dog are pretty damn humble, it has to be said. From this uneasy coexistence dogs gradually, some of them, proved their value as hunting dogs, and while hunting actually taught man to herd ungulates in the way wolves have for millions of years, and from there agriculture emerges and we have the dawn of civilisation. Humans are wild hunter-gatherer apes without dogs. Still, with no suggestion of civilisation on the horizon.
But yeah before the first herding dogs taught man how to harness wild ungulate populations, and arguably even before dogs were hunting companions, they were first garbage disposal units, hot water bottles, children's toys, food and frankly a bit of a nuisance.
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Re: The Alaunt (A type, not a breed)

Postby Docga on 10. May 2018, 23:09

That is the most sensible explanation. Yet scientists still think that dogs were domesticated on purpose for hunting or pets :roll:
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