The Bandog

The Bandog

Postby sunnyAK on 28. June 2017, 17:16

Bandog

The term Bandog (also known as Bandogge) is believed to have originated in the Middle Ages in England. Johannes Caius published a book in Latin in 1570, translated into English in 1576 by Abraham Fleming under the title, Of Englishe Dogges, in which he described the Bandog as a vast, stubborn, eager dog of heavy body.

On off Bandog blood Bandog SBk9 Hector: Image

History

The original Bandogs were bred with a functional purpose, as were all working breeds, and for the Bandog this purpose revolved around guarding and protecting. The Bandogs of old were strictly working dogs, often of various crosses and various sizes. The name "Bandog" was then not a breed, it was a description of a duty or purpose. Usually these dogs were coarse-haired hunters, fighters and property protectors without a strictly set type, developed from eastern shepherds and Mastiffs crossed with western Bullenbeissers and hounds, with a few local bloodlines eventually being established as specific types in some regions, such as Britain, Spain, Germany, Poland and elsewhere in Europe.
Early incarnations of the Bandog probably had bloodlines from bull baiting dogs and the Guardian Mastiffs or the cross of both like the war dogs used in the Crusades.
William Harrison, in his description of England during 1586, describes the type as Mastiff, tie dog, or band dog, so called because many of them are tied up in chains and strong bonds in the daytime, for doing hurt abroad, which is a huge dog, stubborn, uglier, eager, burthenouse of bodie, terrible and fearful to behold and often more fierce and fell than any Archadian or Corsican cur,
In 1576, Dr. Caius states that, among others characteristics, the "Mastiff or Bandogge" is serviceable against the fox and the badger, to drive wild and tame swine out of meadows, and pastures, to bite and take the bull by the ears, when occasion so required.


Modern breed description

Finding various undesired traits in existing guard dogs, for centuries and millennia, people strived to improve upon what was currently available. This practice produced many breeds that are in existence today. Some of these breeds have become mainstream guardian breeds, while others have remained relatively rare. In the pursuit of one's own preference of perfection, various programs have created some breeds similar to what is now accepted as the modern day "Bandog" but did not use that name for their breed. Some examples of such breeds would include the Perro de Presa Canario, Cane Corso, Boerboel, as well as a few others.
The popularity of the name "Bandog" itself was revived in the mid-1960s when a veterinarian John B. Swinford selected quality specimens of specific foundation breeds to create what he considered to be the ultimate guard dog, a breed known as the Swinford Bandog (or Swinford Bandogge). Using performance selection, Dr. Swinford concentrated the desired attributes for his creation and eliminated the undesired ones to produce what he believed was finest guard dog in existence. Swinford worked on his program for several generations, and came to receive significant recognition for his work in various books and journals, but unfortunately Dr. Swinford died in November 1971 before solidifying the future of his creation. For this reason, some people question the long term success of his program, but despite this questioning his work played a significant influential role in re-igniting the interest by some individuals and as a result there has been a resurrection of the Bandog name.
Dr. Swinford's vision developed somewhat from seeing the traditional working breeds dogs suffer from poor selection due to show breeders placing cosmetic appearance over the functional aspects of breeds. To awaken these lost abilities and to improve the effectiveness of the modern protection Mastiff type dogs, Swinford desired to recreate the working Mastiff dog by once again selecting on performance over all other criteria as had been done for centuries before. By using performance measures Swinford required his dogs to be completely safe, trustworthy, and stable within their home environment, yet also fear nothing when a protective situation deemed necessary. For this reason, Swinford selected game dogs to play a major role in awakening the functional working mastiff type dogs by improving their stamina, drives, athletic ability, confidence, and overall health.

Today there are many versions of the modern day Bandog, and as a result the Bandog today lacks a unified breed standard or direction. For these reasons, there is typically little or nothing in common between the modern Bandog programs and Dr. Swinford's program other than the "Bandog" name itself. That said, there are indeed some high-quality modern Bandog programs in existence today that do have very specific goals even though these goals may not be unanimous between one breeder and the next. Such dedicated breeders may maintain the practice of performance-based selection within their own programs, but a few have maintained long-term success in their endeavors or produced multiple-generation dogs for more than a decade. To further compound the complexity of the Bandog as a future pure breed, there are also other less dedicated bandog programs that lack any specificity of working goals whatsoever, yet such programs are able to get away with using the name Bandog name in a generic sense of the word since the breed lacks a unifying registry for work-oriented breeding stock. For these reasons, it is wise for those interested in the Bandog to put forth significant research about their expectations from such dogs.
While the Bandog is still a relatively rare breed, those familiar with a well-bred Bandog often develop the opinion of it being the perfect protection dog for their needs. Various programs have used the American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, English Mastiff, and Neapolitan Mastiff for foundation breeds, but depending upon the program other breeds not mentioned here may have also been used. There are a few programs in existence today that have put forth the commitment necessary to produce multiple generations of Bandogs that are consistently producing working class lines of the breed. Because the Bandog is supposed to be a true working guard dog and because few programs actually put forth the effort to test their stock, it is wise verify the breeder's practice for testing their stock. This is because intention of quality Bandog breeders should be to combine the courage, tenacity, health, and athletic ability of the American Pit Bull Terrier with the larger size, power, and guarding instinct of the Mastiff


Breed attributes

For those who truly breed dogs for guarding purposes, requiring the dogs to be suitable for such work is a normal practice and therefore they should be able to provide demonstrations of their dogs performing such duties. Testing the worthiness of breeding stock is necessary to maintain the quality of the breed, as this practice allows the breeder to evaluate the dog for having the appropriate temperament, phenotype, stability, confidence, nerves and drives needed to excel as a home guardian or personal protection dog. The Bandog should be a rugged dog, moderate to heavily boned, heavily muscled, intimidating when seen, and is a very formidable guardian when provoked by someone outside of the family unit. Committed programs will only breed working Bandogs and maintain dedicated planning in order to carefully select the best performing representatives to genetically contribute towards future generations
The breed ideal is a broad skull, a strong muzzle that is medium to long muzzle depending on the strain, a powerful neck, broad shoulders, a powerful chest, strong rear quarters, great agility, and overall an intelligent and very well controlled dog. When it comes to color, the best breeders generally fall into one of two philosophies, one of which places no emphasis on color whatsoever, and the other believing a guard dog should display a degree of natural camouflage (and therefore avoiding the use of dogs that display significant portions of white). The first philosophy operates under the belief that the best dogs will naturally select out the undesired traits, and second philosophies operates under the belief that protection tests do not accurately evaluate the role of camouflage in trial situations, and therefore those who concede to this later belief choose to model nature's general selection against white coats in non-Arctic types of environments (recognizing that white exposes one's position).
Dogs should generally be a minimum of 90# and 25" at the withers, with no upper limits of weight or height are placed upon the breed as long as the dogs are able to perform efficiently. Bitches should be a minimum of 80# and 24", and also have no upper limits as long as they too are able to perform efficiently. All dogs and bitches should be kept in reasonably good working condition. Non-working temperament, poor structure, laziness, lack of courage, lack of drive, lack of nerve, and even obesity are all considered breed faults

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandog
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Re: The Bandog

Postby sunnyAK on 28. June 2017, 17:24

There are many different Bandog programs out there, so the Bandog really is not a breed, but a type. Many Bandog programs differ a lot.
Let´s say you would have the time and you would have access to all kinds of breeds, would you do something "totally" different than most other Bandog breeders? How would your breeding program differ from most breeding programs?

Here I have another old description concernig the "original Bandogs":
"The Bandog is a variety of this fierce tribe, (the Bulldog and Mastiff) not often to be seen at present. It is lighter, smaller, more active and vigilant than the mastiff, but not so powerful, and its nose is smaller, (narrower), and possesses in some degree, the scent of the hound. Its hair is rough and generally of a yellowish grey, streaked with shades of a black or brown color. It does not invariably, like the preceeding kinds, attack its adversary in front, but frequently seizes cattle by the flank, it attacks with eagerness, and its bite is keen."
Bewick, 1790
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Re: The Bandog

Postby da pink on 28. June 2017, 22:23

They hit the nail on the head with the meaning of the name being its purpose

By this logic I suppose some ambulls are, some aren't
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Re: The Bandog

Postby Gun on 29. June 2017, 02:17

The meaning of the name is just like catch dog, but where Americans describe what the catch dogs do after being released, the quirky old Europeans, always a little counter intuitive in my simpleton redneck opinion, describe them by how they are taken to the hunt. I guess maybe it was more important for it to be clear to any dog handler servants to keep them tethered and not release them with the hounds at the chaotic start of their big dramatic hunts? I don't know. But its clear to me it just meant specialised catch dog, one you point and shoot at something that needs subjugation, whether its a boar bayed by hounds or a dirty poacher or whatever is secondary little details. Today you could say the working "bandogs" are German shepherds and malinois used by the police, military and k9 security. As well as the pitbulls, ambulls and dogos used as lead in catch dogs by hog hunters in the southern united states. Even some of the Aussie dogs released from cages from moving trucks on top of pigs are like new age tether free Bandogs because the point and release to subdue principal is all there.

Then separate to that, as you nicely outlined, you have the modern bandog, which overlaps somewhat with the Bandog function in a hypothetical Venn diagram due to the fact it seems the goal for most is to get a point and shoot attack dog (although they add in guard dog), but with very specific parameters on what breed types go into its production. Its kind of a movement towards a breed destination, even if they won't admit it, or more accurately don't even realise.

I used to defend the modern bandog till I was blue in the face but in some ways I'm starting to see some of the anti-bandog arguments are true. Its kind of a mostly misguided and unsuccessful venture. They aren't taking over herders at all, I wouldn't say they're really producing guard dogs of any great note. I think the bull x mastiff rule is holding them back from achieving any of these things. Bull terrier crossed with a big fat lazy dog just makes a fatter lazier bull terrier. The mastiffs aren't some super guardian breed, they're just big fat ruined bulldogs.

Honestly if I wanted the pp attack and guard dog the bandog community is looking for I'd start with working herder. Police gsd or mal, then consider crossing in game bred pitbull, and maybe even boar dog (whether its mongrel, ambull, alano, dogo, whatever) if the goal is to up the fighting and subjugating prowess. I can see the value in this goal but I'd still start with the working man subduing dogs of our day which are herders. Recreating thorneywood terror, the original night dogs, the ancestors of bullmastiffs, it could be done but it just seems like the modern western mastiffs are tar pits you're inevitably gonna get bogged down in. You'd be better off just training big pitbulls for man work, thats gonna be more accurate.
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Re: The Bandog

Postby sunnyAK on 29. June 2017, 11:59

Gun wrote:I used to defend the modern bandog till I was blue in the face but in some ways I'm starting to see some of the anti-bandog arguments are true. Its kind of a mostly misguided and unsuccessful venture. They aren't taking over herders at all, I wouldn't say they're really producing guard dogs of any great note. I think the bull x mastiff rule is holding them back from achieving any of these things. Bull terrier crossed with a big fat lazy dog just makes a fatter lazier bull terrier. The mastiffs aren't some super guardian breed, they're just big fat ruined bulldogs.

Honestly if I wanted the pp attack and guard dog the bandog community is looking for I'd start with working herder. Police gsd or mal, then consider crossing in game bred pitbull, and maybe even boar dog (whether its mongrel, ambull, alano, dogo, whatever) if the goal is to up the fighting and subjugating prowess. I can see the value in this goal but I'd still start with the working man subduing dogs of our day which are herders. Recreating thorneywood terror, the original night dogs, the ancestors of bullmastiffs, it could be done but it just seems like the modern western mastiffs are tar pits you're inevitably gonna get bogged down in. You'd be better off just training big pitbulls for man work, thats gonna be more accurate.


Lol, I just had the though "Imagine if Lee Robinson was around here." He know would say, that you are a clueless boy and bullshitter with no clue what a Bandog is and would call you a keyboard warrior.
Lol, and lots of drama would start here.

P.S. I have seen some "Schutzhundprüfungen" where all Bandogs lost to the rest of Malinois who took place. I mention that because you mentioned herders and Malinois. Well, and it definitely isn´t true that Bandogs can take more pressure than Malinois! Bandogs (at least many of them) are way bigger than Malinois, but that doesn´t mean they are tougher, or can take more pressure.
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Re: The Bandog

Postby Gun on 30. June 2017, 02:09

Well funnily enough I think Lee was kind of on to something, he at least recognised Bandogs needed to be more agile and faster and if that meant smaller he was willing to do that. His whole thing was seeing a flaw in the bandog community and thats a big part of why they hated him. Another big part is that he's a dickhead. Lol. And dodgey/dishonest and etc etc, I'm probably missing some things, I can barely remember the details. But yeah in hindsight I think physically the dogs he was breeding were pretty much what they should be and his prioritising of athleticism was a good idea.

Still, I'd be happy to have drama with him and argue with him about stuff.
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Re: The Bandog

Postby sunnyAK on 3. July 2017, 09:53

It is interesting, we had the original Alaunt "Alaunt proper/original Alaunt" (If you have a better name, I use another name)...
Then we had the "European Alaunts"
meaning the Alaunt de Boucherie (basically a Bulldog used to control unruly Bully for the butcher).
Then we had the Alaunt Gentil a Sighthound type used to catch smaller game.
And then we had the biggest/tallest of all Alaunt types, theAlaunt Veantre, a dog inbetween Mastiff and Sighthound, used for hunting large and dangerous game, mostly boars.
(All in all my favourite Alaunt type.)
Alaunt Veantre: Image

And then we had Bandogs. My question is why?
This question is not against Bandogs at all, but could not one of these types have taken over the tasks the Bandogs had to do?
Was it really necessary to have a "fourth type" of dog beside the three types of European Alaunts? :?
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Re: The Bandog

Postby Gun on 3. July 2017, 12:06

The way I see it the veantre and bandog were the same thing, even in your pic the dog is tied on lead about to be released on game and I think that's the definition of a bandog. Later veantres/bandogs started turning into mastiffs, bigger and slower and more useless, being bred just to be mastiffs. This was when the whole "mastiff x bulldog = bandog" concept came about in the production of the gamekeeper's night dogs. It was basically because mastiffs were ruined already, the veantre/bandog was pretty much out of use in Europe with gun dogs and scenthounds coming to the fore. So you just mostly had remnant "mastiffs" sitting around and they weren't fit for work, crossing to bulldogs (and I suspect it was more accurately bull breeds) tidied them up for work.

So basically the bandog has had a few waves in history. The original was simply a type of large mongrel catch dog, the second wave was made by crossing the ruined descendants of the original Bandogs with bull breeds to make poacher and criminal catching dogs, and the third is crossing the ruined descendants of the second and first waves with bull breeds to make personal protection and family guard dogs.

I actually suspect initially the veantre initially descends from crossing boucheries and gentil together. I can't get past how similar old paintings of boarhounds, veantres, bandogges, etc are to modern bull x sighthound boar dogs. Which means, counter intuitively, the "mastiff" is just a ruined bull x sighthound.
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Re: The Bandog

Postby da pink on 3. July 2017, 14:20

Gun wrote:
I actually suspect initially the veantre initially descends from crossing boucheries and gentil together. I can't get past how similar old paintings of boarhounds, veantres, bandogges, etc are to modern bull x sighthound boar dogs. Which means, counter intuitively, the "mastiff" is just a ruined bull x sighthound.

The first bit is how I've always seen them...basically a bull grey/bull arab type

Though I would think a bandog (I always picture a bullmastiff here) is just a big boucheries.
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Re: The Bandog

Postby Gun on 3. July 2017, 15:22

The first Bandogs I suspect could be either boucheries or veantre in type (and anything in between). The second late 1700s to early 1900s wave is where the bullmastiff comes from, and yes absolutely they were making a big boucheries, or arguably just a proper boucheries, by crossing big ruined mastiffs (that were just unemployed descendants of the original Bandogs) with little bull baiting (and probably dog fighting) bull breeds. The end result was a 60 to 90 lbs dog very similar to an alano. IMO the same type of dog that the original boucheries was. Now when they try and make Bandogs they're doing the same thing again - big ruined unemployed mastiff to bull breed to get a boucheries type dog, if they're lucky.

What fascinates me most is the possibility theres really no such family as mastiffs. I can easily see them coming about from working bullxsighthounds that stopped working and became pets for a few generations. It would also explain why "mastiff" DNA is dispersed across the bull, sighthound and terrier groups with no clear "mastiff family" branch. It would also explain why they really can't do much, but seem to have an instinct for seizing boars.
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Re: The Bandog

Postby da pink on 3. July 2017, 16:34

So would you say (& a shame Heather isn't here to launch a tirade) ambulls are both bandogs & lgds, then?
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Re: The Bandog

Postby Gun on 3. July 2017, 22:20

No I'd say they're Bandogs, and I'd say they have individuals that fit in both the boucheries and veantre type. They're bulldogs and some have turned into fat mastiffs in recent decades. But LGD is a somewhat elite job description in my eyes, also a totally different, unrelated, branch on the dog family tree in the eyes of science/DNA.

All farm dogs guard livestock if they can, but lgds live with livestock out in the pasture 24/7. Most dogs, including ambulls, won't don't that. In fact ambulls are among the least likely dogs to do that. A German shepherd might patrol around a farm a little bit, I'm almost compelled to describe them as a primitive precursor to lgds and herding dogs, but an ambull is a very modern man-attached dog that if left outside will sleep leaning on the front door of the farmer's house and any livestock more than a couple hundred yards away will be completely on its own.
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Re: The Bandog

Postby da pink on 4. July 2017, 11:15

I'd agree with you, but I'm not sure Heather would, from what I recall of her descriptions of the OWE.

I'm currently thinking a lot of the Scottish terrier breeds (cairn, skye, dandies etc etc) played a more specialist type of LGD roll than most other farm dogs, as well as their obvious hunting one. They're adapted and expected to live outside in the Scottish hills,(their double coats are very similar to a lot of the mountain breeds in this respect) they're often too stocky for proper groundwork (more of this on a later thread) and will work happily alone. I guess where the livestock is chickens they're a LGD, they'd certainly see off a fox and go for badger alone (though how they'd fair here i don't know)

But they're not a bandog, so I'll stfu with me waffle, maybe make a thread on it - after all we have deemed terriers an alaunt
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Re: The Bandog

Postby Gun on 4. July 2017, 11:40

I definitely think Scottish terriers would make better lgds than ambulls. In my experience with terriers they're pretty active in patrolling around and pretty independent "masters of their domain". I mentioned how herders like gsds are decent lgds because they tend to patrol around independently, other herding dogs like kelpies aren't bad at this either. Ambulls, bulldogs, Bandogs etc have to be some of the worst because they're very clingey to their owners and also lazy for most of the day.
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Re: The Bandog

Postby da pink on 4. July 2017, 13:14

It makes sense that bandog types are clingy - they've been bred to act on command. Interesting though, that given they're so close to terriers on the genome wotsit, and terriers too traditionally work with closely with humans that terriers are so independent.
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Re: The Bandog

Postby Gun on 4. July 2017, 13:21

Yeah I'm not sure why. I guess big dogs, for the most part, need that independence tempered a bit to be malleable in human hands while terriers get away with being alpha little shits and its just funny. Lgds are off in the wild so it doesn't really matter. Bulldogs/Bandogs especially need to be quite tame because when they do fight its quite the ordeal for all involved.
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Re: The Bandog

Postby da pink on 4. July 2017, 13:54

same as bull terriers are always (well, mostly) human friendly. Cuddly, affectionate buggers. No one wants a fighting dog that hates people
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Re: The Bandog

Postby Gun on 5. July 2017, 23:54

Yeah for sure, they need to be very soft with their handlers or they'd just be way too much of a handful. Although I do think its quite easy to turn "man friendly" dogs into attack dogs, not the big deal people seem to think it is. And I think a biggish pitbull trained to attack is actually a lot closer to the original gameskeepers night dogs than the mastiffy Bandogs around today that are attempted recreations.
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Re: The Bandog

Postby da pink on 6. July 2017, 11:43

I know what you're saying, but given they had wolfhounds in this period, if a bandog was the size of a big pit, would they describe them as "vast"?

The term Bandog (also known as Bandogge) is believed to have originated in the Middle Ages in England. Johannes Caius published a book in Latin in 1570, translated into English in 1576 by Abraham Fleming under the title, Of Englishe Dogges, in which he described the Bandog as a vast, stubborn, eager dog of heavy body.
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Re: The Bandog

Postby da pink on 6. July 2017, 12:10

huge dog, stubborn, uglier, eager, burthenouse of bodie, terrible and fearful to behold and often more fierce and fell than any Archadian or Corsican cur,
In 1576, Dr. Caius states that, among others characteristics, the "Mastiff or Bandogge" is serviceable against the fox and the badger, to drive wild and tame swine out of meadows, and pastures, to bite and take the bull by the ears, when occasion so required.


again....reference to the size, this time "huge" yet this seems counter-intuitive to being "serviceable against the fox and the badger"

Being a bull and pig dog would lean to being "pure" bulldog, which is Gun's thinking

Very interesting that it was deemed more fierce than a "Corsican cur" - can only presume this means Cane Corso

Unsure what Archadian refers to....isn't that Greece?
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Re: The Bandog

Postby Gun on 6. July 2017, 12:44

How many times in real life have you heard people describe pit bulls and bull terriers as "huge"? I dunno people (laymen) around here do it all the time.

Wolfhounds and boarhounds were only kept by the nobles, I also doubt they were that big. Tall, but not as tall as Danes and wolfhounds of today by any stretch. But yeah certainly bigger than what I'm thinking Bandogs were. I think in general dogs would have been mostly a lot smaller and i don't think SOME bigger dogs existing would stop them from describing fairly small Bandogs as big.

I think big gigantic fat dogs are a pretty new thing and running around the villages commonly in sight you'd have 30 lbs street dogs, 25 lbs bull baiting dogs, terriers, lurchers, collies, spaniels, etc, so a biggish 65-70 lbs pitbull type is a big bulky beast of a dog, relatively. I could be mistaken here, just a hunch I'd bet a few bucks on that the "vast heavy" bandog was probably around 60 or 70 lbs.

To my knowledge "Acadian" actually refers to French Canadians? Never heard of their bandogs before but back then maybe they had some notable ones. Probably did, I think everyone did. So yeah I think "Corsican cur" would mean common ancestor to the cane corso and neo, and Acadian cur would I guess mean common ancestor to the DDB and a now extinct north american lineage. Didn't that famous "DDB" fight a Jaguar (and donkey and bear etc) in north america? I'd suggest French Bandogs probably had a bit of a run in north America, and during this run were probably a bit notorious back in Europe for their feats (like fighting jaguars), even imported back over.

Edit - duh, just noticed the year... Sounded like a good theory, I don't know what Acadian meant in 1575.

Edit again - it was 1604 when acadians set up in north america, do you think its at all possible these French people were called Acadians 30 years before heading over?
Otherwise it's something else entirely. Will see what I can find...

Last edit - yeah looks like its probably greek, you should have mentioned Greece pink, lucky I was here.

Seriously I don't know what Greece had going on in 1575, must have still had some semblance of civilisation unlike now.
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Re: The Bandog

Postby da pink on 6. July 2017, 14:07

I'm thinking Northern Greece, at least, (and thanks for helping out there ;)) is close to the Balkans & Turkey. . . no shortage of big fierce dogs there, how or historically.

Size and weight? Again, I know what you mean, people here will refer to a SBT as "big"...however the wolf & boarhounds (which I've long thought would be more deerhound like in size/appearance etc) were kept by nobility, but it would be nobility, or similar, who did the writing. . . yet they still refer to them as "vast" and "huge". I surmise this would have been in comparison to their hunting hounds. A deerhound weighs, what, 40kg? These, I'm pretty sure, would have been considered big dogs

Why would they call a dog weighing less huge?

These weren't the laymen we talk about, these are people writing about dogs. . . dunno, I just think Bandogs were more modern bullmastiff in size
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Re: The Bandog

Postby Gun on 6. July 2017, 15:46

Very good point about the writer being a noblemen himself and without a doubt familiar with noble hounds. I just still don't think the simple fact he'd seen bigger dogs would stop him from saying they're huge. I dunno just don't feel that kind of vague language conclusively means they were what we would consider huge or even what the author really would consider huge if pressed. Bulky compared to noble hounds, and every other dog they had around. This could be enough to inspire emphasis on size IMO.

However 40 kgs I can live with. I believe 40 kgs was around the upper limit for this type of dog. Like the working boerboel from the 70s, like the alano, like the early working bullmastiffs like thorneywood terror, like what working bullmastiffs shrink down to now. Like serious ambulls, like working corsos, dogos... 70 to 90, maybe even 100 lbs for the rare freak, thats the range in which i imagine the original bandogs to be.

Like you say talk of fox, badger, catching bulls... All kind of supports my hunch IMO. But again, could definitely be wrong.
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Re: The Bandog

Postby da pink on 7. July 2017, 10:55

I could deffo believe a 40 odd kg "bandog" would be perceived as massive compared to a sight hound the same weight. . . he'd be a serious fucking dog, like you say, same weight as Thorneywood Terror


The badger and fox bit still points to a smaller dog though, imo, which goes against all the descriptions
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Re: The Bandog

Postby da pink on 13. October 2017, 14:02

Found this, maybe explains the Archadian curr comment

Edmund de Langley, writing in the fourteenth century, mentions the Molossus (mastiff) and the Aluant (bulldog). This appears to be the first occasion when the breeds were mentioned separately. Dr. Caius, on the other hand, mentions only one breed " the Mastive or Bandogge " in a book written about 1570, so we presume that, in the Middle Ages, the breeds were frequently cross. I suggest that in future bull-mastiffs be called Bandogges - surely a more attractive name! When the Bull-mastiff Club was formed, to standardize a small handy mastiff or large old-fashioned bulldog, there was a dispute as to the name: some wished to call them night-dogs, some bull-mastiffs, some bandogs. Queen Elizabeth or her physician, Doctor Caius, would have been in no doubt at all : bandog is the traditional name. Though earlier writers distinguished between the Alaunt or Canis Anglicus (bulldog) and the Canis Molossus (mastiff) Caius fails to mention the smaller variety: the " mastive of bandogge " was " An huge dogge, stubborne, eager, burthenous of body and therefore of but little swift-nesse, terrible and fearful to behold and more fierce and fell than any Arcadian curre. " In Vero Shaw's opinion this description refers to the bulldog rather than to the Canis Molossus or "mastive" of Edmund de Langley which, being supposed to be of Greek origin, was doubtless the "Arcadian curre."
da pink
 
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Re: The Bandog

Postby da pink on 13. October 2017, 14:12

It's a well written little site, actually http://bandog-slovakia.sk/bandog-en/

I liked this
We now had the fresh blood our project needed. The impact of the hybrid-vigor factor surfaced immediately. Without question we had created a superior mastiff. This being the first responsibility of the Bandogge project. Conversely, we also created an inferior American Pit Bull Terrier. However, the goal of the Bandogge breeder should not be to improve the Pit Bull Terrier, as this would prove to be futile. However, to improve the mastiff, with their many faults would be a reasonable challenge. Our primary focus would be to improve motor skills, to thicken nerves and capture a higher degree of gameness. One must never loose sight of an important historical fact. It took three hundred years to create the perfect bull and terrier cross. Having said this, it is also safe to assume the larger the dog the longer the journey to perfection.

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Re: The Bandog

Postby da pink on 13. October 2017, 14:16

I'd love to read the evidence of bull & terriers being crossed 300 years back - not heard that before
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